Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I live, like, not too far from the old Quibi office, and so I like to roller skate there because it's. It has very smooth pavement. So. And it makes me kind of laugh to be like, I'm skating on the Quibi graveyard. But I would, like, literally roller skate on the Quibi graveyard and I would think about, like, my pitch for myself and what I could offer to head gum. And my, like, strategy was kind of like, I have everything you want. I have the admin and, like, organizational type, a fast, deliverable skill of a talent rep assistant that is C season that has been scarred, seasoned, and recovered. And then I have the creative aspect of being able to, like, review and assess materials based on the taste of the company that I'm working for at, like, a really fast rate. And I also know all the players and I know who their assistants are. And I have the tight. I have the A and I have the B. And then together you have this amalgamation that maybe could be useful to you.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld.
[00:00:57] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey.
[00:01:02] Speaker C: 50% business, 50% creative.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new how to.
[00:01:07] Speaker C: So, guys, we've done podcasts about film. We've talked about shorts and features, theater, visual art, music, documentaries, commercials. You name it, we've done it. Biz and creative.
But what about a podcast of about podcasting?
Well, that's where Ally Khan comes in. She is a tenured producer at Headgum, one of the leading podcast networks out there, bringing us shows like Seek Treatment with Pat Regan and Cat Cohen, Gaotic with Muna. And what's our podcast with our friends Beck Bennett and Kyle Mooney, just to name a few. On a personal note, I am a nerd when it comes to podcasting, so this one was extra special for me, and I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did. Here we go.
Well, you're catching us in a day where we're recording three episodes.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: My God.
[00:02:02] Speaker C: I mean, look at us on a Saturday. Come on.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:02:06] Speaker C: Come on.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Just a couple Melanie Griffiths over here. Working girls.
[00:02:10] Speaker C: That's always the comp. That is always the comp.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: We get that so much is that.
[00:02:14] Speaker C: I know.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: It's like the third time we've got
[00:02:17] Speaker C: that Must be every other guest at this point.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my God.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: Compare. Yeah.
Well, Ally, it's so great to see you as always, and have you on the podcast.
We have. For a long time, we have been talking about having someone who is actually in the podcast business. On the pod on the podcast because it is such a passion of mine and it's the whole reason why we have this podcast because Luke founded this amazing film festival and I was like, what are you doing in the times when you're not planning for the festival? Let's continue the brand. Let's keep it going, let's. It felt very natural to kind of interview the people associated with the festival and then so on and explore other sides of the business. So really happy to have you on.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Oh my God, thank you for having me. What a treat to be joining a Riverside instead of sending it.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: I know, yeah. How does it. Are you. Because I know you do do some. You work at Headgum, which is a fantastic podcast production company, but you do do some front facing stuff. Correct. As well. Like you guys have a sort of Headgum esque podcast.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Yes.
Yeah, there's like a head there, a Headgum podcast, which was like a staff podcast.
So when I first joined, I got asked to be on it like as sort of a rotating staff. Staff of characters to like build up sort of what the behind the scenes, like culture is at Headgum, which was so fun.
[00:03:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: So I did that. Yeah, I did that. And then I've cussed it on a couple other pod like Headgun podcasts. Just like happenstance, you know, like when. When someone needs like a random last minute expert on Gossip Girl. Good fellas, things like that. That's sort of my spectrum of information and so I'm. So I could tap in.
[00:04:10] Speaker C: And that spectrum is just Gossip Girl to the Gossip Girls pipeline.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:04:17] Speaker C: It's a pretty clear sort of. I mean, obviously.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: How did, how did you get into podcasting?
I'd love to. To hear about some. Some backstory.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So nothing I ever planned on, nothing I ever expected or thought was like a job really. But my first job out of college when I moved to LA was.
Well, first I worked a bunch of random jobs, like as one does when you're figuring it out. I was like an assistant to a director and I was working at a restaurant and I was a nanny and I was also, for a time I was like, I was watching this former Miss USA's Chickens and I would let them out of the coop every morning and like spread the feed. And then at night I'd go back to her house and like put them back in the coop and like say goodnight. So I was doing.
[00:05:04] Speaker C: Really.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: This was in Santa Monica or like in an LA proper or was it.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: This was in the Valley.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:10] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: Yeah, so like, I was really doing anything I could to like piece it together.
But then I got my first like real job at Artist first, which is like a talent rep place, a management company and that I worked there for about three and a half years. And that was like a very intense, it was really intense job.
And then from there I did a year in development at a small production company that I don't even think exists anymore.
And then from there I was like, the content that I was working at at this production company was all very like gritty cop dramas. Everything that I was reading like 10, 20 scripts a week, everything was like, this dirty cop has a secret, secret. And like the wife is also has a secret.
And I was just like, I was losing my mind candidly. And I just, I always wanted to work in comedy. That's why I moved out here in the first place. I was super open to what that looked like. And especially as like the TV landscape has changed so much, I saw an opportunity in podcasting when I saw this job for head gum come up. And so anyway, long story long, I ended up getting it and now I've been almost four years there.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Wow, it's amazing.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:27] Speaker C: It's so crazy how you found. Because I, I, I always loved late night tv. Growing up, I like wanted, I wanted to like host the Tonight Show. I wanted to like work in it late night sml, totally. All that, that whole thing growing up. And then I, I like kind of, I mean, I quote, unquote, discovered podcasts like for myself, you know, as just like, as I found that, like the way that, that late night chalk shows were humanizing celebrities, like, that's really what I, what I found was the reason why I loved it. And now you have podcasts which are not only like part of the press circuit, but also just do that and you can really get to know people in like a more authentic way and obviously like authenticity we talk about all the time on the podcast is like the number one thing in social media and modern day culture. So I feel like that that's, that was my way in. I'm curious, like, what was, what did you, what, what surprised you about like the podcast landscape and in what way did it do that for you?
[00:07:29] Speaker A: My gateway to podcasting was Jake and Amir, my college roommate, showed me their sketch videos when I was in college and I, and then I got into their podcast from there and then I sort of got into like my last couple years of college. I went to school in Chicago and I knew I wanted to move to la and. And I was. All I wanted to do was work in comedy, and I thought that that was, like. I thought that my dream job was to be a staff writer in a room. And because I knew broadly what I wanted was to work on something that was creative comedy based with a group of people, I really liked the collaborative nature that, like, I romanticized and heard about. And so I really started obsess, obsessively listening, listening to comedy interview podcasts, trying to, like, figure out the track that everybody that I admired was on and how I could replicate it later.
So I was, like, fully. I. I knew so much about all of these random people that I have never even seen them perform, but I was listening to, like, audio of UCB shows and being like, whoa. I was friends. I was fans of improv teams that I had never seen. Like, I just.
[00:08:38] Speaker C: You're deep in it.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: No, I was deep in it just because I thought it was interesting. And I, like, grew up, like, obsessed with comedy and, like, was a big and city girl. And.
Yeah, so that I would say that was my, like, sort of intro to it was being like, oh, okay, what. How did all these people start working in something that I would like to do one day, too?
[00:09:03] Speaker B: I'm. I'm curious. Like, with comedy interview podcasts, I think that's such a.
Almost like a niche, and it's in itself there. Like, what did you find from doing all that research and having that experience? Like, what makes a fantastic comedy interview podcast? Like, how do you. How do you toe the line between, is it just a bunch of people messing around for an hour and a half? Or is there, like, a mix of messing around and also seriousness? Because some of the best comedy movies or shows have those moments of. Of heart or. Or, you know, other emotion aside from just laughing.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Honestly, like, the one. I don't even think you can find it any anymore. I tried to find it recently, so I don't even. I might have been taken down, but Ricky Lindholm had a podcast, and it was called Making it with Ricky Lindholm. And nobody interviewed people like she did, which was getting so deep into the minutia, and she was asking questions that I had never heard anybody ask. So, like, you know, I. I would have, like, a hyper fixation on, let's say, Ben Schwartz and. Which is real. And so I would. I would.
[00:10:05] Speaker C: I would listen to, like, the rest of us.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Yes, the rest of us, like, in. Especially in that era. So I was listening to every single interview that Ben Schwartz did and I'm like, okay, he started out as a late night intern, and then he became writer, and then he got into improv. And I'm like, okay, so that's what he did. And. But Ricky Lindholm, she had him on her podcast and all of these amazing comedy people that, like, I love and admire. And she would be like, she would ask questions that were like, okay, step one, how did you get in touch with someone who would even be interested in repping you? And, like, when you say that you started working somewhere, like, break that down, and break that down into small, step by step details of what that actually means.
And, like, what was that interview process like? And she was asking all these, like, entry level questions of logistics that I was. It was such valuable information because there's nothing online that's actually helpful about starting to work in this industry. Like, did you guys find that too? Like, I. I feel like everybody just told me to become an NBC page and that and, like, left.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. I'll try. I'll try to do that.
[00:11:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you so much. Great.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:09] Speaker C: Haven't heard that one before.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Right? And then it's like, you Google it and they're like, become a writer's assistant. And then you move to. And you're like, that's not a starting job.
Good luck.
[00:11:18] Speaker C: Not a starting job. I. I will have to suffer so much to get to this point. Like, it. It just.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: It.
[00:11:23] Speaker C: It doesn't make as much sense as it does when you just say it, you know?
[00:11:26] Speaker A: No. And it'll never be posted anywhere. It's like. No, actually, what you. What someone needs to tell you is that you need to meet people and get it. Like, figure out what the. The web of connections is, because that's how you'll find out what the job is.
[00:11:40] Speaker C: Yeah. And. And for you, it's also like, you. I assume you saw the industry landscape changing, right? Because especially these days, like, writers assistant jobs are so few and far between, you know, so finding. Finding about, like, out, like, what. What's my version of that? You know, what's my version of being a staff writer? What do I love about this thing? What have I always loved? How do I get to do something in that vein, you know?
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Totally, totally. And yeah. And no one's. It's. It's hard, especially when you're a type A person, because no one's path is, like, able to be replicated specifically to you. And I don't know, there's no clear blueprint of how to do any of It. Or even what any of it is. It's all so abstract and vague. So having having comedians interview each other with, like, really small questions about their beginning days was, like, honestly, helped make me feel like I had a little bit of confidence and, like, information when I moved here.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Was that. I mean, I guess, like, thinking more about that time when you just moved and I. So if the goal was getting. Was I guess the question, was it a. Was it your goal at the time to be a writer's assistant or, like, getting in the room, Was that the number one goal?
[00:12:55] Speaker A: Okay, totally.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: And so was that podcast, maybe, you know, with that podcast, were there other pieces of. Pieces of advice you were getting from meeting with people, or is it just like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just gonna try to do this?
[00:13:11] Speaker A: Oh, I fully had no idea what I was doing. I was getting general. I was meeting anybody who had a cousin's friend's barber's wife that lived in la. Like, I was meeting with costume designers. I was meeting with people in post production. I was meeting with people in special effects. Like, it didn't. I. It didn't matter. I was just, like, talking to anybody and everybody, which I think is, like, very. Was very helpful at the time. Ultimately fruitless, but. Oh, well, actually. Well, then what ended up happening and how I got my job at Artists first, like, was my. It was kind of one of those random things where it was my dad's high school's basketball coach's daughter was.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: There we go.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Exactly. Is. It was a manager at Artist First. And so I.
And he, like, messaged her on Facebook and was like, my daughter wants to be a writer. Would you talk to her? And so then I went in just to, like, talk about what it's like to get your first job. And then afterwards, as I was leaving, the HR person at Artist first was like, oh, I want to talk to you too. And then there happened to be a desk opening up, and then I was like, it's kind of the one thing I never wanted to do, but I don't really have any other options, so let's do it and honestly learn. Learn a lot. It is the grad school of Hollywood.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Did. Did that grad school, like, did. Did that progress your writing at all, or how did that time affect your perception of your writing or even your skills?
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Oh, my God. That's such a nice question. Honestly, it. It de. Romanticized me, which is sad, but I think it happens to everybody that learns how the sausage gets made. Like, it Made me realize that, oh, this, this isn't necessarily a dream job job at all. And what I sort of had in my mind, it doesn't exist. That's not really what it is. It's not really like a group of friends wearing hoodies, like laughing it up in a conference room with a whiteboard.
[00:15:05] Speaker C: Like it's, it's not how it looks like on 30 Rock, you know?
[00:15:08] Speaker A: Exactly.
I was like, oh, it's deeply competitive. Oh, there's a lot of like personal politics that are at play.
[00:15:15] Speaker C: Like, this is very politically.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: Oh, like it doesn't, sometimes it doesn't even have anything to do with your writing at all. And so anyway, so I, I kind of stopped writing for a little bit too also because that life structure is so immersive and it's so hard to do anything else. It was like a 7:30am to 8:00pm at least night job.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: So I was too tired. I was too tired.
And so then that set me down on like a whole existential crisis crisis of like, oh, well, what if, how do I justify not doing the thing but I'm doing something. And you know that I had so much guilt about not writing, but I was too tired to write and I was too busy and you know, but I, Yeah, slowly moving back into a job that was comedy focused helped me like reclaim a lot of that guilt that I had for not doing something that felt like intrinsically aligned to what my taste is.
[00:16:13] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. I think it's so hard in the industry. I think a similar thing happened to me. I worked in talent management for two years and in a very sort of business esque side of the industry. And you, it's so, your passions are so tied up with your identity that when you are at a job where you are kind of serving someone else and your job is to be a great assistant, you, you lose a sense of who you are. Therefore, Therefore, how are you supposed to find out, like, what you love to write about? You know, like, how are you. We talk so much about finding your creative voice on the podcast and like, how are you supposed to sort of reclaim that creative voice when you are so exhausted and like, you need to do the job because it is, you know, it's good because it, it helps you meet all these cool people and it's in the industry and you're, you're making money, which is important and all these things, but it's, it's, it's a real push and pull there. I, I found that too.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Oh my God. And Then you hear these stories, stories of rant people who are like, oh, well, I just got up every morning at 5am and I wrote and then I went to the desk and I was like, I can't do that unless someone wants to give me drugs.
[00:17:26] Speaker C: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: I don't know how you do that. Yeah, I was, I was like, I'm at max capacity.
[00:17:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, how, how do you expect to define your voice like if you can't?
I don't know. I think so much about like the creative voice thing too is like allowing yourself to actually sit there with yourself and like consult yourself and ask yourself questions. And if you have no time for yourself, how are you supposed to do that? And 5:00am Even like, I, I sure, maybe some people do that, but like that's crazy, you know, I don't know how you, like you're gonna fry yourself. Like that's, that's burnout central, you know, like there's absolutely.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And so I, like, I didn't have time to read, I didn't have time to write. Like I was basically so emotionally exhausted at the end of the day that like I would just go home and stare at the wall. Like, that's great. It was just kind of, that was kind of.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: So I feel like, like is. And it honestly, like it made me really depressed and it made me really upset and I wasn't happy and I was working really hard and I got to be a really good assistant. But like, at what cost?
[00:18:33] Speaker C: Sure, sure. Of course. I absolutely relate to that.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So I feel like I started to get really angry and have this like hyper fixation with like my agency, like agency of self, agency of time and being able to like have that like be able to do what I want on my own time and not being able to do that even when it was like the weekend or something because you know, it's, it's a 247 job. Somebody always needs something.
And so I feel like after that, so after that experience, it's been like a steady climb up back to try to feel like I've regained some sort of agency of self. Like I'm, I can move as I need to totally.
[00:19:17] Speaker C: And, and it's important to remember that everybody has their own path, you know, like everybody that, that it's such a profound topic to talk about the agency of self and like how much when you, when you are in such that grueling entry level job, it's like how do, how do you even remember what you like and even on the weekends, you know, it's. It's so hard.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: Wyatt, when you were doing your agency gig, did you have to announce when you were going to the bathroom?
Phone rang.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: I mean, I. I would just try to, like, not go to the bathroom during. When it's not lunch.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: Totally. Totally. Well, and I was like, like.
Because I did, I'd have to stand up and shout to everybody so my boss in his office with the open door would hear me go into the bathroom. And then so that he would know to answer the phone and I wouldn't get yelled at. And my job after artists first, I was still doing. I was fully still standing up going, okay, I'm going to the bathroom. And someone came up to me and they said, ali, you don't have to tell us that.
[00:20:22] Speaker C: And. And, Ali, please don't tell us.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing, but, like, none
[00:20:27] Speaker C: of us are wondering what you're doing.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah, like, we trust you're coming back. And I was just like, I literally had to uncondition myself from being, like, that militant because I was like, well, what if the phone rings and they were like, then you'll call them back.
[00:20:42] Speaker C: I still. Absolutely. I mean, it's like, I feel like you can really bond with, like, former, you know, assistants and representation about just, like, those. It really is, like, Pavlovian the way that, like, oh, my God, like, I still remember, like, the sound of the phone ringing. Like, I now.
I answer all calls on my cell phone now. Like, I don't even have an office phone or office line or anything. But back in the day, like, I still remember. I, like, hear when I'm falling asleep sometimes, I swear to God, like, that sound of the office line ringing. It's very real and so out and so outdated. Like, what are we doing?
[00:21:19] Speaker A: You know, it's ridiculous.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: So as. As you started to take steps, I guess. I mean, it is kind of interesting, though, to maybe even ask of, like, how you did take those first steps of, like, refinding yourself or prioritizing yourself. Like, how did you actually do that in practice in. In that environment?
[00:21:40] Speaker A: I honestly, I don't even really think I was able to start doing it until candidly, like, the world shut down. Because I was still there when the pandemic happened. And so I had. And I remember, like, on March 3rd, 15th, we were all still there in office, and, like, that was the last time. And everybody was slowly, like, okay, like, just leave. And I had this, like, weird feeling, like, as I was walking out with all of my stuff And I was like, I don't think I'm ever going to see the inside of this building again.
And then I was, like, taking walks around the block, and, you know, all of a sudden I was like, wait, this feels good.
[00:22:23] Speaker C: It was, in a way, like, obviously, the pandemic was so awful, but it was like an equalizer to some extent. Like, we're all going through it together, you know?
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, even just being able to, like, that those couple of weeks before they figured out how to, like, still trap us remotely, when you had, like, a little bit of freedom and there was all this time and people were, like, baking bread and stuff, I fully indulged, and I felt like that was so healing for me.
[00:22:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: There was that. That small moment where it was like, everyone was doing cool stuff for a second, and then it got really. Then it got really bad. Yeah.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: Because everyone was like, this is going to be, like, maybe five days.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:04] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: So then coming. I. I guess. Was there a. Was there, like, an epiphany during COVID of, like, podcasts? Or was there, like, I'm going to start writing again or I'm going to start baking bread and I want to open my own bakery? Like, what. Where was your head at, you know, going through that?
[00:23:20] Speaker A: When I finally left talent rep, I moved to this production company that was, like, run by this direct, this action director, and, like, a small team of executives. And I was like, finally, I will have time and space in my head. And I was so excited to focus on being creative again.
And so, I don't even know. It started small. Like, I just started, like, watching movies again. I started reading again. I started, like, trying to move my body again. Like, I taught myself how to roller skate.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: I just started trying to do things that were, for me that I didn't have time to do a couple years ago without having, like, a panic attack at the idea of, like, not being so available.
And I think with that came a lot of healing. And then with podcasting, it was like, to be honest, I kind of saw the writing on the wall that this production company that I was working at, like, maybe wasn't, like, long to last.
Some. I'm no. I'm no mathematician, but some math was not mathing.
And so I was like, I think I need to figure out a way out of here.
And so I found it through the. I found the headgum job through the UTA job list, and one of the form. One of the former actors that was on, like, my talent roster back at Artists first is a longtime collaborator, Jeffrey James, with Jake and Amir. And they do. He, like, hosted the Headgun podcast, and he has been doing sketches with Jake and Amir for, like, eight or nine years. And so to me, I was like, okay, I know Jeff. I really, really like him. I've been working with him for years.
I have to assume that if you are making online sketches with someone for this long of a time, like, it's for the love of the game, like, why you wouldn't do it if it's a bad work environment, like, there's no there. I didn't see the point in having such a long relationship with somebody that if it was an unpleasant experience, like, for something that's, like, so goofy, so. And so that was kind of really what I was sussing out was like, what does this environment seem like? So looking at Jeff's relationship on purely on the outside and just trying to, like, play survivor mental politics with it, I was like, this seems like it's a good sign to me.
And they went through a bunch of rounds of interviews. I interviewed, like, four times, which was the most that I had for any job up to that point. So that also felt like a green flag to me because I was like, okay, people are actually being vetted.
They care about the cohesion of the vibe.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:06] Speaker C: It makes you want it more too, you know?
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Oh, I wanted it so bad. And I was coming up with, like, I would literally. I remember I live, like, not too far from the old Quibi office, and so I like to roller skate there because it's. It has very smooth pavement. So. And it makes me kind of laugh to be like, I'm skating on the Quibi graveyard.
[00:26:25] Speaker C: This is crazy. Yeah.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: But I would, like, literally roller skate on the Quibi graveyard, and I would think about, like, my pitch for myself and what I could offer to head gum and my pit. And my, like, strategy was kind of like, I have everything you want. I have the admin and, like, organizational type, a fast, deliverable skill of a talent rep assistant that is. That has been scarred, seasoned, and recovered. And then I have the creative aspect of being able to, like, review and assess materials based on the taste of the company that I'm working for at, like, a really fast rate.
And I also know all the players and I know who their assistants are. And I have the tight. I have the A and I have the B. And then together, you have this amalgamation that maybe could be useful to you.
[00:27:12] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It's interesting, too, because you mentioned at the beginning of this interview, like, you were a huge Jake and Amir fan.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:19] Speaker C: From long before you were even, like, in the industry. How did. How did you balance that? Throughout that interview process of being like, I'm a nerd and I totally.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Well, so first I was like, I did. Totally did my research. I made sure I went through the entire roster of hadgum at the time and made a list of every single random connection I had to any host, which was like, I had a couple and. And some them besides Jeff. It was like, honestly, like former improv teachers, like, just from going through UCB out here in LA and then I.O. in Chicago. Like, there were some people who were my teachers that are Headgum hosts. So my first couple rounds, I kept it very casual and was just like, well, this is the Jeff connection. But also, I know mono and I know adol and I know this. And I like, I've been in the world like, you. You didn't know me, but I knew you. And I've been studying. And when I finally got to, like, the part of the interview process where I was like, on a zoom with Jake and Amir, which was so crazy to me, I waited, you know, of course, until the very end when I was like, okay, not to be weird, but, like, as a sign off, I just have to tell you, like, I do really love you guys.
[00:28:30] Speaker C: Well, it's also like you. Yeah, it's. It's that. That fine line between, like, I know everything about, like, this company and what you guys do or like, and that to me, if I'm like, the hiring person, I'm like, oh, like, we don't have to explain this to her. Like, that. That feels nice.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: Right? Well, and you'd be surprised how many people don't do, like, basic cursory Internet research before jumping on a call with someone.
[00:28:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: Or.
[00:28:53] Speaker C: Or even better, like, what you did is, like, finding your way in. Like, oh, I know that. Like, it's just what you do in entertainment. Right. We have these mutual people. I've been a fan of this person. I think you might know this person. Like, those are things you should be saying in interviews. Right.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: There's also that, that unspoken, almost like, understanding of like, hey, when famous person walks in the office, you're not going to take a selfie. You know, like the fact that you didn't start with, hey, just want to say, like, oh, my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, that it was like, here's a full conversation and I'm going to finish with just being like, hey, also this, you
[00:29:28] Speaker A: know, that's such a real point. Yeah, it's true. And that's. Honestly, that's a huge part of my job now. Like, I'm so very much, like, front facing at Headgum and letting. I'm constantly dealing with talent, greeting them, getting them situated, like, make it. I'm engineering, recording, so I'm in the studio with them. And then I'm also like, ushering them through what I hope to be like a very pleasant experience, where then maybe they would want to bring their podcast here or start one with us or, you know, tell their friends. Like, I'm, I'm trying very hard to leave a good impression of the vibe and the energy and what the experience. Experiences and yeah, you need someone who can read the room.
[00:30:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: And I feel like I really, like, cut my teeth in talent rep doing that. Like, even floating as a receptionist for a time and like greeting people that I like, loved and because also it was like, then I, I would be next to a girl who would be like, oh, my God, like, where. What is, what is your top from? And can I, can I, like, talk to you about it? And she would, like, be like, very energetic and very, like, too excited. And I was like, girl, you gotta simmer down. Gotta.
[00:30:34] Speaker C: Yeah, just be chill, you know, relax, Play it cool.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: We gotta play. You have to pretend like you don't care.
[00:30:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: Essentially you don't care.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:44] Speaker C: Well, it is. I mean, that's like, to me, that is producing 101, right? Where, like, you are, you're in a current project, say the project is this podcast and you have a guest on that podcast and you're like, I admire this comedian so much. This is someone who I would want to work with. Right. And so we need to make a good impression here. We need to make it seamless. Our hosts will do their thing, they'll enjoy the experience.
A nice thing about Headgum and having, you know, having a podcast that is everything's taking care, right? Like the edit social clips, everything's taking care that you want to feel like, oh, if this person ever wanted to start a podcast, we'll take care of you. Right. Like, I feel like that's, that's the produce, oral element of it.
[00:31:27] Speaker A: 100%. Yes. You need someone who's very comfortable greeting and giving, like a hospitality factor to it. Like, able to talk and able to feel comfortable. Like getting someone through this whole experience come and I don't know, it's a lot of it. I felt in my experience, experience of like, working in industry so far is that there's been such an undervalue on soft skills like that, when really it's like it makes the biggest difference. And it's not always very easy to quantify, but that's, I think, really, really, really invaluable.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: Are those soft skills something that's like innate, like, that you kind of come up with, or is that something that you can learn? Like, do you think you learn those at the agency? Do you think everyone. Because our audience, just to give a tiny bit of context, but like, a lot of our listeners are younger folks who are preparing to jump into the industry, like these first steps. So are these skills that they can pick up or learn, or is this something that, like, people are just, you know, they start with?
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I think I. I think I came in knowing that. I think I came in being pretty good at reading a room, but it got so much better after actually being in these rooms and really listening. I think just honestly, listening is the biggest thing. And if you're going to speak up and you're going to say what you speak your mind, especially when you're like an intern or an early assistant, making sure that it's something that's valuable and additive and not just for the sake of talking. There were a lot of people who just really wanted to, like, get their voice out there, but were ultimately saying nothing.
And I felt like that that was.
It was not a good use of that brief attention that you get put on you, so. And also, like, you know, not to be so.
I don't know.
I always think about it in terms of playing Survivor, which is like, maybe a little bit dramatic, but, like, you gotta always remember you're playing Survivor. Like when you're at the office.
[00:33:37] Speaker C: Can you dig into that more of like, you know. Yeah, those sort of strategy elements to it.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: There is strategy, there's you're. It's a social game. Like, you don't go to the office and then tell your boss that, like, you're having. You're in a bad mood and you're having a bad day and like, blah, blah, blah, it's like, that's not their problem.
Don't you share that with your friend, not that person? And like, you know, if I know that this person is going, this assistant is on a really busy desk. But I need their help with xyz. How can I help them and make myself someone that they would want to help in return? And just thinking about, like, little things like that that, like, help grease the wheel of the experience so that you end up being set up for success. Like, there's a lot of little things that I think that maybe people don't think about totally make a big difference. And it's all. All. And it's not even, like, it's not being fake and it's not being inauthentic. It's really just like trying to read the room and see people and who they are and then figure out, like, how. How can I build a relationship with you that feels real and is natural and authentic and. And. But also helpful.
[00:34:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I also. One thing that I found really helpful is, is you get to listen to phone calls all day. You know, you get to hear how your boss talks to either talent clients or other reps or lawyers or, like, and. And they talk in different ways to all these people. Because, I mean, I guess you're looking to get various things out of these people, and the other way it goes is provide different things for these people.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: You know, there is a. Yeah. Like, there is a bit of, like, almost code switching between different types of people in the industry that you're. And you're listening to your boss have those phone calls. I remember the first desk I was on, like, my boss was a woman, and she would call casting agents all the time, and if they were women, she would always start the conversation, hey, mama.
And she, like, she was buddy. And then she'd be like, so what's going on with that part?
She'd call someone else and she'd be like, okay, so I just got off the phone.
Yeah, hi.
[00:35:50] Speaker B: Hello.
[00:35:51] Speaker C: How are you?
[00:35:52] Speaker A: Exactly? And I was like, just figuring out how, when, and where to do that and have fun with that is. Is a good skill that nobody will teach you, and you'll only get through listening.
[00:36:04] Speaker C: And. And if we take it back to earlier in the conversation, it. It has to do with reclaiming that sense of self. Like, are. Are you the person who says hey, mama to people?
You know, Like, I. I. Am I that type of person? What is my version? Like, my old boss used to always, when he got on the phone with a client, he would go, buddy.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:36:24] Speaker C: Yeah, buddy. And am I a. Am I a buddier? Do I do that? I don't know. Like. Like, am I a person who.
[00:36:32] Speaker A: Like, it's trying on a hat.
[00:36:34] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So at. At these companies where you're. Where you're an assistant and you're sort of lower level and still figuring things out, you are trying on all those hats or you. And then Sometimes there were like, agents that my boss would talk to that I was like, oh, like, I. I want to steal that from them, you know, like, even if it's not the person I'm hearing all the time, like, oh, that was awesome. I love the way they handled this. They did this in conversation or they reference. They remember that their daughter plays baseball or whatever it is. You know, it's 100%.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Like, just getting to know someone on a personal level makes such a big difference. And I also think that, like, really leaning into your, your personality and yourself and like your ness is what makes you the most valuable and unique. And that's honestly being able to finally have the space to have a little bit more of a personality and lean into what makes me me and have that be additive to a company is the most I could ever ask for.
[00:37:40] Speaker C: We'll be right back.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: Are you sick and tired of spending months on short films that get seen by just your uncle? Are you sad and bored of editing all the time and all that footage for just 10 views? Well, now's the time to change that. Submissions for the 5050 Comedy Fest are open now. Get your work seen by professionals who can actually advance your filmmaking career. Not your uncle, unless your uncle happens to be at a top tier talent agency like caa, UTA or wme.
Check out the episode description for the submission link or head to filmfreeway.com and search for 5050 Comedy. 5050 Comedy is on May 3rd. Submitting to 5050 Comedy may lead to money, fame, fast cars, boats, planes, helicopters, cybertrucks, and lifelong friendships. 5050 comedy is on May 3rd. We look forward to seeing you there at 5050 comedy May 3rd. Your uncle is not invited unless he works at a top tier talent agency like CAA, UTA. WME May 3rd. 5050 comedy May 3rd. 5050 Comedy May 3rd. We look forward to watching your comedic short film in. In podcast world too. I feel like that's what sets podcasts apart, you know, and I think Wyatt and I have had this conversation a bunch as we continue to, like, figure out, you know, what the 5050 podcast is, you know, and, and seeing our place in this, on this show, it's like exactly asking that question of like, okay, there are so many podcasts out there. It's such a, you know, some people say very saturated market.
Wyatt is on the opposition of that saying, never, never. Everyone should have a plug. Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's.
And I, and I agree with Wyatt. I do.
And I also think, though, that, like, I don't Know, there's something very intentional or positive about being very intentional with, like, okay, finding that, like, uniqueness of us, you know, and letting that shine. So I wonder, totally turning that to you, Ali, like, when you are working in the podcast space, how are you making sure that shows. And stop me here, if this is just not your job, but, like, how are you.
How are you making sure that these shows, like, lean into that, like, uniqueness, you know?
[00:39:46] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that is totally my job. I'm a. I'm part of my job is being on the acquisitions team. So I'm constantly reviewing our slate and reviewing submissions of new podcasts that don't exist yet or ones that already are out there but maybe need a home and trying to figure out, like, if they would be a fit for the Headgum Network and figuring out what that means. And you. So I listen to a lot of samples. I listen to a lot of random podcast episodes all the time. And the first thing that I'm trying to decide is, do I actually think that this is funny? Do I enjoy it? And just trusting and honestly, that was something that I had to become braver about through trial and experience, because I think you start out very polite and very, like, I don't. I. You know, a little scared to be honest about, of course, if. If you love something and you really want to fight for it, or the inverse, where you're like, does everybody like this except for me and just being comfortable with my taste and my opinion and then figuring out how to explain that, like, in a persuasive argument, the ethos, pathos, logos of why does this show really strike me as something that would be good for us to take on? And it's usually because it sounds like that these are friends having an authentic conversation. I believe what they're buying, what they're selling, and it's funny and it's fun. And I enjoyed their sense of humor in a way that felt real and not like what I think that somebody else would want me to say, if that makes sense.
[00:41:23] Speaker C: Do you have, like, a tangible example of one of those shows that you guys have potentially taken on or. Or even developed in house with people? Like, is. Is there something that we can turn to that, you know, someone can go listen to after this?
[00:41:37] Speaker A: Yeah, okay, I'll. I'll give two. Two examples, one of each.
So a podcast that existed that wasn't on the Headgun Podcast Network was gaotic. And it's. It's not. They're not making any new episodes because they're touring or they're about to get ready to tour, but it's hosted by the band Muna, who at the time was my all time favorite band. I thought that they were so cool. This was right when Silk Chif came out and they had made eight episodes of a podcast during lockdown, kind of just for fun. And then now we're a little bit interested in maybe re upping it and making it like a real ongoing show. And I was like, this is my favorite band. This is the perfect project for me. Put me in coach. And so that was an. So I became their podcast producer. And so I ended up producing two seasons with them over the course of two years and really getting to curate like, it was such a dream scenario where it's like, okay, your favorite band is in a room. They have a comedy podcast. Who do you want to watch your favorite musicians talk to? And that was such a fun project for me and was such, like, I never once thought that that would ever, ever, ever happen. So that was. That was. That's, I guess, an example of something that just felt so tonally aligned with me and what I would want the network to be just like, in terms of representing queer voices and like, also bringing in, like, less ushering in, like a era that's like a little bit less, bro. We then, you know it the podcast,
[00:43:08] Speaker C: especially in the comedy podcast space. Right?
[00:43:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, I loved being able to find something that just felt like, I honestly find this to be so funny. And then on the inverse of that, like a podcast that we grew from the inside and developed from the ground up and put out into the world.
Beck Bennett and Kyle Mooney's podcast, what's Our Podcast has been so much fun to work on.
[00:43:33] Speaker C: I mean, you're preaching to the choir here.
Kyle has been a supporter of the 5050 festival, and he's just like.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: He won. He won our first honorary award and he pulled up. It was awesome.
[00:43:48] Speaker C: I love him just, like, the sweetest. We've talked about this on the podcast before, but just like the sweetest guy who took the time to just like, talk with every single filmmaker.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's the best. Beck's so wonderful too. And it's like, they're just. They're so. It's so nice when you can get. Just when you can continue loving someone's work because they are genuinely good people.
[00:44:11] Speaker C: Yeah, totally, Totally.
[00:44:14] Speaker A: I love Beck and Kyle so much. And so when they were like, oh, we want to do a show together, that was such a fun process for my team because we were working with them through the development process of what would you want this to look like? And they had all these very like, esoteric and like out of the box concepts and like figuring out how to shape that into something that was. Had structure and what it would look like and what it would feel like. And I, and the part that I got to work on that I love so much is like curating the guest lineup and doing that part of it. So I was figuring out, you know, guess the. What the.
What the strategy behind launching this show would be. And that ended up being when the show like trailer came out, there was a deadline article about it and that was like the first time that had gum had gotten like an organic deadline mentioned.
[00:45:13] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: So it felt so special. And they had my name was an in it, but my lineup was. And it was like all of the people and like little, you know, little comments being like an episodes this season are going to have. And I was like, my work.
[00:45:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there we go.
What a great feeling. And so, and so well deserved. It's like, was that just such a great moment? Just like feeling like, oh, like, yeah.
[00:45:37] Speaker A: I was like, I don't, I don't need my name to be in this. My lineup is in it.
[00:45:41] Speaker C: Even better.
Even better.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: What, what, what goes into curating a lineup like that?
[00:45:49] Speaker A: It's honestly, I always tell hosts to try and have, you know, a very strong Internet audience, heavy guest up front, if you can. I think that also that makes a big difference when you're launching a show out from nowhere and then trying to find people that have like the cachet of maybe that they would bring an audience to the, to this new show because people love watching every single thing that they do. And then also has a personal relationship already with the hosts so that the hosts feel comfortable. Because sometimes it could take a couple episodes if they haven't done this before, for them to like, really feel like they've gotten in the groove and they know the tone of their own show and, you know, not. And kind of like stop being like nervous and polite.
And so I don't know, it's kind of striking that balance. And then working backwards through like, I'm. I'm a crazy person that's going through everybody's Instagrams being like, who do they follow? Who does that person follow? What's the interesting connection here? Then I'm on IMDb being like, oh, like they were both animated characters in a short 15 years ago. That's interesting.
And then like reaching out and trying to, like, put together this puzzle. And I really. I really enjoy then getting the. Getting yeses, especially when it's like a fun, exciting person that I'm like, oh, I don't know, maybe this is like a Hail Mary. And then getting to slot it into an order that feels some pleasing, like, symmetrically balanced. It's. There's a little something for everybody.
[00:47:27] Speaker B: I love that we've had a couple documentary focused guests on the podcast. And it's interesting because how you're talking about, like, curating this lineup and thinking about potential, like, overlap or that short 15 years ago. It's like you're. You're almost. You're. You're itching at, like, scripting it a little bit, you know, and like, of course it's not scripted, but, like, it just is. I. That kind of reminded me of our conversations with the documentary folks where it was like, you try to find these. You do the research, basically, and, like, put the right people in the room and then see what happens. But it's not just some random people in a room. It's like, like, you kind of have an idea of the energy or what could possibly come up, you know, before you hit record, you know, that's a
[00:48:12] Speaker A: great way to put it that I haven't thought about before. But, yeah, it is kind of like little. Making a little mini documentary every week.
[00:48:20] Speaker B: It's like a fun.
Just putting. Putting the proper pieces in place and letting.
[00:48:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: Letting them come together, see what happens a hundred percent.
[00:48:29] Speaker A: And sometimes I'll be in a situation where it'll be like a. Guess what? That they don't have a prior relationship with, but I think would be really good. And I'm not talking about Beck and Kyle. I'm talking about just like, in general.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: And I am sort of looking. Sitting behind the engineer desk, like, anthropologically studying what's going down and going. Okay. Like, it's. This is.
It's all unveiling right here.
[00:48:52] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it. Yeah, you're so right, Luke. And saying like, it's not scripted, but you're like, okay, yeah, this is. You're. You're listening to it and you're like, this is something I thought they would talk about. You're like, they're getting to it.
[00:49:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm like, okay, good. They finally brought up that one Burger King commercial I was hoping that they'd remember.
[00:49:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
That's so good. It's very producer of you.
[00:49:13] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:49:15] Speaker C: And the Beck and Kyle podcast is interesting because it is it's called what's our Podcast? Because it is them figuring out what their podcast is going to be on air. So it's.
And, and these, you know, celebrities, friends of theirs come in and basically pitch. So it, it allows a guest to come on and them to basically do like the best that. The thing that they are the best at doing, which is like a 20 minute sort of improv thing. Right.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: A hundred percent. And it's been fun playing with, especially after, like just working in traditionally structured podcasts for so many years before, like, playing with the form has been very fun. And getting to sort of, you know, it's like you have to learn the fundamentals so that you can rebel against them. That's what working on that podcast feels like in a very fun way.
[00:49:59] Speaker B: How, how much do shows like that evolve or like the actual, like, programming of the show evolve as episodes happen?
[00:50:11] Speaker A: That's such a good question. I. Well, one was with specifically Becca and Kyle's podcast. For the first 20 or so episodes we recorded out of both studios. And so in our office.
And so what would happen was we would have them do like an intro in one room and then they'd go and do their podcast within a podcast in a different room and then they'd go back to the first room and like recap the experience after.
And after 20 episodes, we were like, I don't know if we need to keep moving to a different room and back.
[00:50:47] Speaker C: We were like, what if we just. What if we just, like, we're tired. All of us are pretty tired from this.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like, yeah. And we're like, we're booking, fully booking up the studio because you're gonna be there in 20 minutes for 30 minutes. Like, I don't know, it was just. We were like this. Maybe there's an easier way. And so then we started, we just started having them record the podcast within the podcast. It's all in the same room, but we changed the lighting and try to make like, it feel like atmospherically a different vibe. And so like, that's one example of us being like, okay, maybe we don't need to book two studios for one show.
[00:51:26] Speaker C: And it's, you know, on the surface it seems like a small fix, but I'm sure that there were many conversations that went into this. And even with, even with Beck and Kyle, like, I'm sure, because I know they are creative people and like to produce themselves. Like, they're. I'm sure they're in those conversations as well.
[00:51:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, you can never make everybody happy. So it's like, of course. Then there's you. You'll get a comment that's like, I really miss that other room.
[00:51:54] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I'm sorry. Yeah, I. I watch that episode again.
[00:51:59] Speaker C: I'm exclusively, like, an audio listener, so I literally was like, all right, great. Switching back. The. I didn't know you guys were in.
So great.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: No, and like, it's so true. And it's. It's one of those things where you're just like, man, like, you can never get it right 100 of the time. No, but. But I do. I think the one room is. Is good. But also, I had, like, an experience where I was producing this show newcomers with Nicole Byer and Lauren Lapkis, and I love, love, love them so much. Yeah, I. It was awesome. And it was a film review podcast, and I was. And I. I was like, I was assigned it, and I was assigned what the theme of, like, this season was going to be, which was Scorsese movies and when I tell you. And we only were doing 10 episodes, and so we had to pick and choose which movies we were going to cover and when. I have never gotten such online hate as. As the films that I didn't get to include in the 10 episode order.
[00:53:02] Speaker C: Yeah, you're dealing with film bros there. That's.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: No, totally. And it was. Yeah, it was. Honestly, I was like, oh, my God. Like, this. I didn't anticipate. I'm like, I'm really, really sorry that we're not doing King of Comedy. In retrospect, that makes sense.
[00:53:15] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And it's also funny because, like, Lauren and Nicole are not, like, they're not film bros, you know, like, the whole premise of the podcast is them reviewing it, you know?
[00:53:26] Speaker A: No, they're. They're newcomers. And also, it's like, so am I. Like, I didn't. I didn't come into this being a Scorsese buff. Like, I've seen what I've seen, but there's a lot that I haven'.
[00:53:36] Speaker C: Totally. Yeah.
[00:53:38] Speaker A: And so that, like, that was a funny situation where it was, like, going through the process of being like, okay, I'm producing a season of a movie review podcast, and some of majority of these I haven't seen myself either.
[00:53:50] Speaker B: Well, I mean, with. With the flexibility of the medium, like, of podcasts, like, how often are you listening to those comments and being like, hey, audiences, they. They want to hear about King of Comedy. Maybe we have an episode about that. Or is it like, we're recording These episodes, and we're doing that, and that's
[00:54:08] Speaker A: that I am unfortunately on the Reddit pages. I am deep is as a producer. I'm like, I gotta know.
I gotta dive into the cesspool of comments and see what's going on.
So I'm always, I'm always reading everything.
[00:54:25] Speaker C: Yeah, it's kind of your job.
[00:54:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of my job so that the hosts don't. They. They are. Ignorance is bliss.
And then I'm sitting there and that's
[00:54:33] Speaker C: where the talent management stuff.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:54:35] Speaker A: No, yeah, yeah. Which, you know, and sometimes it's, sometimes you get good feedback. It's not all bad. Like, I, I.
It's very strange reading things about yourself, but like, I read one comment about I.
So another show I work on is Best Friends with Nicole Byer and Sashir Zamada. And I love them too. And when I first started recording with them, I was really, really nervous because I like them so much. And part of the show, they would get advice questions from listeners and it would be my job to read them the questions during the episode. Which again, like, that wasn't on my job description. Never once in my life did I think that I'd ever be do in that situation doing that. But, But I was. And I was reading too fast.
Like, I think I was nervous and I sounded nervous on Mike and I read Reddit comments about me on, on episodes being like, that girl needs to read slower.
[00:55:36] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:55:37] Speaker A: And oh, my God, I was humiliated. I was mortified. I felt so bad about myself. And then I was like, okay, I have a recording with them next week. I am going to read slower.
[00:55:48] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You're sitting in the talent chair now.
[00:55:52] Speaker A: No.
[00:55:52] Speaker C: Yeah, that's how it feels. It's constantly.
[00:55:55] Speaker B: You should see the Reddit comments on Wyatt. Oh, my God. It's out of control.
[00:55:59] Speaker C: Mostly about haircuts. It's a whole thing.
[00:56:01] Speaker A: It's having a job where people are commenting on it in an online forum is so bizarre.
[00:56:08] Speaker C: Yeah, very.
[00:56:10] Speaker A: Yeah. I never thought that that would be part of it, but I'm like, okay, I guess I'm. I guess now I know what, that you guys really love these films and that I need to read. Read slower.
And so now, now in sessions, I totally. I take a deep breath and I'm like, okay. Hi, Nicole.
[00:56:28] Speaker C: On, like, a calm podcast.
[00:56:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I like, yeah, I'm like, I have a question about friendship.
[00:56:37] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Long pause.
[00:56:39] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:56:40] Speaker C: Well, I do want to be conscious of time. And before we ask, ask our final Questions. I do. I'm just curious about, you know, flipping it back to the more so business side of podcasting at Headgum. And, you know, Headcom's obviously a very, very successful podcast production company with, you know, tens of shows, if not hundreds.
I'm curious, what are the conversations at work like about the sort of grand scope of the podcast industry and where it's at and you've been there for four years now and how would you say that the, the podcast industry has changed and how much are you guys sort of trying to adapt to that? And I, I know it's a long winded question, but I'm curious if there's anything notable that you guys are talking about.
[00:57:27] Speaker A: No, totally. I think that I've really been present for this transition from being an audio only format to including so much video to the point where, you know, I'm producing like mini TV episodes every week. That's kind of what it feels like of like little talk shows.
And so I being a part of that change and all of the small details and decision making that goes into that has been really interesting because you're not just considering like, oh, is this, this you're. Because now you're trying to factor in the algorithm and this like new digital dawn of numbers and influencers and like how all of that plays into this already existing ecosystem that used to be audio and super niche and now it's kind of like coming into the mainstream in a new way.
Navigating all of that has been very, very interesting. It's been a lot of growth. And then I've also been able to see like, you know, with that comes.
It's really hard like for a network to always be able to like, I don't know, there's you, you're just, you're taking a lot of guesses, I guess is what I'm trying to say. When, when you're putting out a show that doesn't exist yet. Yeah, I don't always. It's like, will the Internet like this, Will they like this video? Do they.
[00:59:00] Speaker C: So hard to tell.
[00:59:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you could you. Some things hit and some things don't. And then there's some people who you're like, oh, every time they guest on a podcast they get hundreds of thousands of views and then they go on this one and then maybe it doesn't translate. And so it's like you're. It's all just like very learning through trial and error and experimentation. And sometimes you fail and sometimes the podcast doesn't work. And like, dealing with that and like, moving through that is also, like very valuable learning experience.
[00:59:30] Speaker C: And, and how do you guys deal with ads and brand sponsorships and things like that? Like, could you do like a, you know, a two minute sort of rundown of like, the way that ecosystem works?
[00:59:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So at Hudgum, we have this place called Gumball, which is like our ad sales platform. And so there's a sales team and they do all of the ad sales for shows that are just on the Gumball network, but, like, might be a dependent or whatever. And then all the shows that are on the head Gum network.
And so I, if I'm working with a host, I am putting together a list of advertisers and it's a new show that's joining the network. I'm putting together a list of advertisers that they've worked with in the past, brands that they admire and they would want to work with. And then I'm working with the sales team so that they will then do outreach and, you know, tend to those relationships and then get as many ads as we can booked on this on the show.
But it's always like, what. What's changed a lot in the past couple years that's been interesting is we've been doing a lot more custom integrations. And I think a lot of that has been coming with like this new video age. Everything's getting a lot more creative and a little bit more organic and like freewheeling. So it'll be like, you know, Nicole did.
She just did a real. An episode on why won't you date me?
And had a custom segment about Airbnb experiences. And so Airbnb experiences, like, she got to do like a tarot reading and then like a jewelry making class and then with Sasheer and then like their Galentine's day episode was like talking about it and it was like, it felt like a natural episode. It's two girls that are best friends talking about two fun things that they did together. But also like, that was a campaign and just figuring out like, fun things like that that please the business side of it, but then also maintain creative integrity. And I guess that's like, where sometimes it can feel a little bit like a Mad Men episode where I'm like, okay, you really have. It's really like you have the business guys and then you have the art team and everybody wants different things.
[01:01:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:01:45] Speaker C: And as a producer, you're right in the middle of that. I love them at all. I mean, that's.
That's Exactly. And we've talked a lot with marketing people on the podcast about how they work with brands in a creative way.
Because there is real storytelling that can happen even when you are a brand sponsored video or podcast or whatever it is. I've seen really creative ways on other networks and specifically with Hedgegum that you guys have done that. So applause to you on that. It's really, really cool.
[01:02:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it all just comes back to wanting to maintain a sense of authenticity.
You know, you can hear when someone isn't being real and you can hear the difference between someone like half assing an ad for whatever that they don't care about and then when they're like, oh, this was a good experience that I'm speaking to it. And so it's constantly trying to figure out how do we make it more the latter than the former.
[01:02:42] Speaker C: Well, we do ask one final question on this podcast and it's. It is intentionally vague so you can take it how you want.
What is the dream?
[01:02:52] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
Mine would be. Honestly, I don't. I would love to continue writing and become a published author. That's my dream above dream that I'm putting out there and manifesting it. I'm planning on being a novelist and yeah, I don't care about being in a writer's room anymore, but I do want to write a book and I want to be able to do that while working at Head Gum and being able to balance like what I was trying to do in talent rep and wasn't able to just like making a living, paying my bills, doing something that during the waking hours, it feels creatively fulfilling and I feel like a person and I feel aligned with myself. And then also on the off hours where I can do whatever I want doing my own creative work and then eventually getting in a place where I can put that out and then sort of like be a. Be multi hyphenate.
[01:03:46] Speaker C: I love that. I love that. Well, you're on the perfect podcast for that. We talk to a lot of those people and we try to cover all areas of the industry. So we really, really appreciate having you on. You've been personally just so warm and welcoming to me as someone who's just like a fan of the network and of podcasts and I feel like I can always send you an email and hop on a zoom with you and run stuff by you. So I really appreciate you for, for that and for. For this episode.
[01:04:14] Speaker A: My God, thank you for having me. This is so fun. And I, yeah, I love her. I love our network Friendship that's blossomed.
[01:04:23] Speaker B: Thank you so much for coming on, Ellie.
[01:04:28] Speaker C: And now it's 50 50.
[01:04:41] Speaker B: She. She's awesome, man. She's awesome.
[01:04:44] Speaker C: Yeah,
[01:04:47] Speaker B: like, really funny is too.
[01:04:50] Speaker C: I know. And I. I mentioned this in the end, but she. She truly, like, I feel like I half reach out to her just because I. I do truly listen to the Headgum podcast so much that I am just a fan and, like, want to talk about, you know, the. The shows that she produces. Like, it's. It's unbelievable how much success she's found at this company.
But also, she's just, like, took a path that you don't see many people take. You know, pretty cool.
[01:05:17] Speaker B: She totally just followed her own passion and where she wanted to go. I think we should continue to use the 5050 podcast as a way for Wyatt and Luke to be selfish and talk to people that we want to talk to, which were.
[01:05:28] Speaker C: That's exactly.
[01:05:29] Speaker B: That's what we've done for the past 48, 50 episodes.
[01:05:32] Speaker C: Years, you know?
[01:05:33] Speaker B: Yeah, 40. 40 years. 4400. And, you know, do a long time
[01:05:39] Speaker C: to think that it's been like, a couple decades that we've been doing this is unbelievable.
[01:05:44] Speaker B: Yeah. When was the last time you slept?
[01:05:47] Speaker C: Probably, like, I mean, the 80s were no sleep whatsoever, so I would say I had a brief period in the 90s where I was sleeping a ton. I did one of those, like, hibernation things.
[01:05:56] Speaker B: Oh, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. No, we.
I don't know. My. My brain is slowing. Is your brain slowing too?
[01:06:05] Speaker C: Oh, boy, oh, boy. Oh, brains are slowing.
[01:06:09] Speaker B: I know. I gotta go get food. I gotta go walk. We should do. Let's try to. Let's try to do a brief recap quickly about this and then jump.
[01:06:17] Speaker C: This is it, though. This is it. We're in it.
[01:06:19] Speaker B: You think this is the recap? We just did it.
[01:06:21] Speaker C: Well, well, we did. We did some of it, but we can keep going.
[01:06:24] Speaker B: She's awesome. I wrote fan first, which is, I feel like your terminology that you always say. And she is so clearly a fan in an awesome way.
[01:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:06:32] Speaker C: I can't take credit for that term, but at the same time, I don't know where I got it.
To me.
[01:06:38] Speaker B: Said it. You said it during the John Lee's episode. But that John's. But also The David's. The A24.
[01:06:46] Speaker C: Yes. And it was like the title of the episode, basically.
[01:06:49] Speaker B: Right.
[01:06:49] Speaker C: It was like how to approach things as a fan, how to channel relentless passion, wasn't it?
[01:06:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:06:55] Speaker C: Which is pretty much Just like, being a fan.
[01:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:58] Speaker C: And there is so much about being a producer that is being a fan, you know, but, like a controlled fan.
I wrote down, read the room. Room, you know, definitely.
I had. I had a question that I didn't get to ask her, which was, like. Which I think is an important thing of, like, during that time when she felt like she was sort of losing who she was a little bit by doing the assistant grind and all that, like, what was her support system? Like? I. I kind of always like to ask that question because I think it's important to, like. Like, for me, like, at fourth Wall, like, I had you, and you were, like, making short films with the USC people, and I was able to, like, hop onto that, and that was like, a breath of fresh air. I had MacKenzie, obviously, and, like, all these. You know, it's important to, like, surround yourself with people who are doing other things and, you know, or on the same trajectory, and you get to bond over everything. So.
[01:07:51] Speaker B: Covid's such a crazy thing, you know, it's crazy. I feel like everyone had that, like, story of, like, in Covis, then Covid, you know, or after Covid, I. You know, and for her, it sounded like that's when she was able to dig into that support system, whatever it was, and, like, take that.
[01:08:08] Speaker C: She had, as she said, she had that time to walk around the block. Walk, like, that's literally all you need, you know?
[01:08:14] Speaker B: There you go. And she kind of answered your question then, of, like, her sports system might have just been taking care of herself going outside, which is, by the way, I love taking walks, you know?
[01:08:22] Speaker C: I know you do.
[01:08:23] Speaker B: We live in LA. 75 degrees. Go take a walk.
[01:08:26] Speaker C: Crazy.
[01:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah, go take a walk.
[01:08:28] Speaker C: That's what I did between records.
I did, too.
[01:08:31] Speaker B: Ignorance is bliss. I wrote down, too, which you said.
[01:08:34] Speaker C: That's on the talent side.
[01:08:35] Speaker B: On the talent side, you know, which I think is such an interesting thing. But it's so true. Like, they're gatekeepers for a reason sometimes.
[01:08:42] Speaker C: Totally. It's not. It's not lying. It's just knowing how everything react. And if. If artists found out about everything that their agent had gone through with their deals or whatever, they would freak out, you know? Like, don't you think?
[01:08:59] Speaker B: Absolutely. I'm only, like, giving the pondering look because it's in every relationship, you know, it's like, you don't tell everyone everything. Even on set, right. In production, it's like, if you're directing, I don't have to tell my actors that crafty is not on time.
[01:09:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:09:14] Speaker B: You know, like, why. Why stress Wyatt out the lead?
[01:09:18] Speaker C: Exactly. Well, yeah, it's because it's like, hey, let's. Let's have their best and feel best, you know, Producer. Totally.
[01:09:25] Speaker B: Stuff, too. Yeah.
[01:09:26] Speaker C: It's also just like. It's about conveying information in a consolidated, digestible form, too.
[01:09:33] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:09:34] Speaker C: Of like, instead of. We went like. If you're talking. I'm talking in a very traditional sense, like, where you're doing a client's deal. Like, we went back to the lawyers. They offered this. They offer, we don't need to know how we got there. Just tell them what we got in the end and what it means for us.
[01:09:49] Speaker B: You know, in writing, they call that the need to know basis. You know, it's like when you're writing a scene, it's just on the need to know basis. You don't have to say everything. Just what is needed, you know? Yep.
[01:10:00] Speaker C: Yep.
Absolutely. All right, let's do lunch.
[01:10:04] Speaker B: Let's do lunch. I'm down. We should do lunch sometime.
[01:10:07] Speaker A: Dude,
[01:10:19] Speaker B: Did you learn something? I'm like your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050Fest on Instagram and. And give us five stars, because. Why not? Why not subscribe? Why not? You know why not? Okay, bye.
