HOW TO: Approach Animation from a Writer's Perspective (w/ Anca Vlasan)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I had met Michael Cusack when he came to the office to Adult Swim once because he wanted to make a bump, and I kind of taught him how to make a bump. And. And he had seen, like, my short lizard queen that I made. And I obviously was a huge fan. Like, YOLO was already underway. I had been watching all the animatics because I'm nosy, and I just, like, I love. I love that show so much. I mean, like, two women who get to be gross as hell. Like, that's my dream show. That is, like, I love that you, like, never get to see that, you know, but so he had written. I think they had done the first six episodes, and I think they were stuck on, like, he was stuck on the finale. I was like, you know what? Like, let's just, like. Like, we can bounce ideas back and forth. Like, this is what I do for the animated ideas all the time. And, yeah, that ended up. That turned into, like, me and him co writing an episode together, which was amazing. [00:00:49] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld. [00:00:50] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian. [00:00:52] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey. [00:00:55] Speaker C: 50% business. 50, 50% creative. [00:00:57] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new how to. [00:01:01] Speaker C: Before we get into the episode, it should be mentioned that this year's 5050 comedy festival occurred last weekend. Not only did we sell out Braindead Studios, but we curated an excellent lineup of six films chosen from over 460 submissions. On a personal note, we've been doing this podcast for over a year now. And however intimate we try to make the podcast feel, sometimes the breadth of the impact gets away from us. But last night, getting to see all of you celebrate the 5050 community, it made it all worth. Just feels so good to be part of something. There is so much love, so much passion, so much humor in that room, and that is what makes this all worth it. But enough sappy stuff. Let's get back into business. Believe it or not, submissions for our 5050 horror fest, which will happen in October, are now open. Go submit Peeps, Link in bio. And now back to our usual programming. This week, we talk with Anka Vlasson. Anka is obsessed with writing. Structure, plots, dialogue, you name it, she will break down a story and build it right back up. And that obsession has served her well, especially in animation heavy environments. If an animator has a vision, she knows how to emotionally get to that beat and make it that much more impactful. And her years of work on Adult Swim and beyond proves just that. Enjoy the episode. [00:02:37] Speaker A: I'm Kind of burning the candle at both ends. So I am both. I'm writing my first one hour drama. Very gritty, very. There's murder, you know, very different from someone who, you know, gets paid to write fart jokes for a living. But that's been fun. And then I'm working on a couple pitches for some animated short series. And then I have a couple pitches coming up next week for, like, a actual animated show show. So I have to practice my pitch for that, even though I've done it a million times. But, you know, always good to keep it fresh. [00:03:17] Speaker B: I love the artwork behind you on your wall there. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Thanks. [00:03:20] Speaker B: Got the Adult Swim flag. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's sort of like. I worked at Adult Swim for, like, literally right out of college. It was my first job. And that kind of just kind of worked my way up over there. But, yeah, it's a big part of, I don't know, my sense of humor. I'm also Eastern European, so the good fit. But, yeah, love Adult Swim. And then YOLO is just another show I worked on. And then Qualman comes back and then just some other artists that I love. Billy Saffy or something like that is amazing. [00:03:54] Speaker C: Well, the amount of stuff you're doing just that you've named is very, very impressive. And I love that, you know, you mentioned burning the candle on both ends, and you are Eastern European. And, you know, you didn't correct me if I'm wrong. You didn't grow up in the States. You moved to Florida. Right. Or what's your. What's your exact story? We can kind of get into, like, who. Who you are and everything. [00:04:18] Speaker A: Yeah, my whole life story. Yeah. So I was born in Romania. My family and I, we moved to America when I was five, so. And we kind of have like a crazy coming to America story. But yeah, my dad was a computer engineer in Romania. Huge nerd. Then there was communism, a communist dictator. That was pretty bad. And after a while, you know, like, the country, like, had overthrown him. But then the years after that were still pretty, pretty rough. You know, it was like a rebuilding. And. Yeah. Then I was born. My dad was like, well, shit, I need to provide for my family. What am I gonna do? So he took a job on Carnival Cruise Lines as a line cook, which is crazy. And, you know, he. It's pretty, pretty tough. You're away from your family for a long time. You're out at sea. You know, obviously, he's like a huge nerd. So, like, being a line cook wasn't like the. His Favorite thing to be doing. But yeah, one day, like, the. I think there was, like, a problem with, like, the electricity in his unit or something like that. Or something was going wrong. Some impurity tech thing was going wrong. Everyone's, like, freaking out. They couldn't get it to work. And, you know, this is like. Like, food on a cruise ship is, like, crucial. You gotta be serving on a buffet. There's gotta be. You gotta be serving up food 24 hours, you know? And. Yeah, so people were just, like, freaking out. And. Yeah, my dad showed us. Showed up and, like, fixed it in 20 minutes. And everyone was like, oh, my God, how'd you do that? How did a lowly line cook fix this thing that, like, you know, even people on board couldn't fix? And he's like, I have a master's in engineering. And they're like, okay. Crazy. And then they're like, oh, well, the CEO of Carnival Cruise Line is going to personally come down there and give you a handshake when the boat docks in Miami. And my dad called my mom. And my mom is a very. She's a tough Eastern European lady. Okay? She is not one to be fooled around with. And she was like, a handshake. You don't shake that man's handless, he gives you a real job. And my dad, he's nerdy, so he didn't really say that, but he was like, it's my dream to come work in America. You know, I have a master's in computer engineering. Big nerd. Would love to do that. And it worked. The. They. [00:06:44] Speaker C: Wow. [00:06:45] Speaker A: Yeah, they. He worked on. On board. On the ship for. For a couple more years, and then he moved to Miami. And then a couple years later, my mom and I came once we got our paperwork and stuff. But. Yeah, so that is. I was kind of like, this is so funny. It kind of feels like a general. But every time I, like, tell people I like. Do you tell that story in general? A lot of the time. A lot of times. Because I just feel like it's so, like, those are the people who made me. I am both an Eastern European bitch, and I'm also a huge nerd, just like my dad. And I feel like that's the. Yeah, just. It's a great, like, prepper to get to know me. [00:07:29] Speaker C: I love that you got, like, the. The sort of personality and that drive, like that, like, mathematical thinking element. I love that you. You really hold that story close to you, it seems like. And you're able to, you know, carry that with you. To. To some extent as. As you get into this industry. And I'm curious, like, what made you want to get into this industry then after, you know, with that story? [00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you know that the story is sort of like once I started going on like generals and stuff, it was kind of like you have to kind of tell people something about you. You've got like a 20 minute spiel about yourself. It's like, what's something that's so indicative about you? And you know, me being Romanian, even though I grew up in America and I spent. The majority of my cousins in Romania will tell you, they'll be like, this girl's not Romanian. She's American. And I'm like, okay, relax guys. But I think it's just such a big part of, of who I am and just like, like you said, like my personality and my point of view on things. And I also think a lot of my, like, sense of humor comes from that. So, yeah, it is something that I, that like, I carry with me a lot. And I think it's like what helps, you know, what helps me like, stand out from other writers or it's like, you're gonna remember the like, Romanian immigrant girl. You know, total story. Yeah. And it's a real story. And like, you know, I'm very, very blunt. I am. I'm terrible at. If I don't like you, you'll see it on my face. I cannot lie. You'll see everything on my face. But. Which is funny because one time I had an Adult Swim in Comic Con. I was like, we were doing like a Toonami livestreaming and anyways, some fan asked like a dumb question. I rolled my eyes at them and it was on a Jumbotron and I got in trouble for it after. Yeah. But yeah. So anyways, to back up. Yeah. So we moved to Miami. I grew up there. I don't know. I honestly, like, I think I just like, love TV because I grew up watching it, like to learn English and stuff. And I moved to when I was five, so it was like, really quick. I was really quick to pick it up. But yeah. Yeah, I don't know, I just think, like, I just loved how like every show was kind of like a little world, you know, And I think like, you know, like, well, like other little girls are like, playing with Bowies and stuff. I was like, I was like watching the animated shows. I was like watching like Madeline and I was like, huh, okay. So like, these are the settings that she's in. It's like the orphanage. And it's like sometimes she'll go to the countryside, you know? Like, I think it was just. [00:10:03] Speaker C: You're dissecting it in a different way. [00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think I've just, like, always love stories. And I think there's definitely something with, like, you know, being, like, being in a new place and wanting to communicate, you know? And, like, I definitely remember being, like, the first time when I was, like, in kindergarten here where, like, I didn't speak English yet. I grew up in Miami. My teacher spoke Spanish and English, but, like, not Romanian. And I think there's definitely probably something there of, like, wanting to communicate how I'm feeling or how something. What something feels like, you know? And I think with writing, it's kind of like. It's like you're taking these, like, big, nebulous ideas of what's going on in life and trying to, like, kind of synthesize that and boil it down to something where that people can understand. And I think oftentimes, as we know, it's like, I can tell you that I'm from Romania, but if I, like, instead take you on the journey of, like, how we got here, how it's crazy that I'm even in LA now talking to you, it lands so much more. And so I think it's like, that's kind of where the love of story comes in, too. Because, like, it's not just like, telling people something. I mean, this is, like, the oldest thing in the world. But it's not like telling people something. It's showing them, you know, it's like taking them on the journey with you so that they, like, truly understand. Because also, sometimes I think when you're trying to, like, synthesize your, like, thoughts and feelings and stuff, it's sometimes even just, like, by telling it in a story other. Like, you might put things in there that you didn't necessarily think that you needed to communicate. That was part of that experience, you know? And I just think, like, that's what, like, great writing kind of does. And that's why, like, movies are always, like, open to interpretation. It's like, yeah, because the author created something, but maybe they unintentionally put something in there along the way that they themselves didn't even realize, you know? [00:11:56] Speaker B: So the stories you're telling, like, when it comes to writing, do you find you're leaning towards, like, the fish out of water type situation? [00:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. There's definitely a lot of that. I have the short called Lizard Queen that was, like, my first Animated short that I. I did not animate that. I hired some interns at the time to help me. But yeah, that's definitely. It's like a lizard girl who, like a human. Like a lizard woman living in, like, New York City and, like, trying to make it work. And like, it's like everybody around her is human, and it's like everyone's so self involved that they don't even realize that she's a lizard person or they don't really care anyway. [00:12:37] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:12:38] Speaker A: And of course, she has a wig, which is kind of like Clark Kent's glasses, you know, so it doesn't even. [00:12:42] Speaker B: Because that works. [00:12:43] Speaker A: That works. Yeah. I mean, this is an animated show, [00:12:46] Speaker C: you know, of course, the suspension of disbelief a little bit in animation. [00:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah. But I think, you know, and I. I made a short for Lizard Queen and I think, like, what I got, like, it's a fish out of water story, but it's this girl trying to get ready for, like, a Tinder date. And she's like, trying to, like, fit in her dress, and her dress doesn't fit, so she, like, yanks her arm off and it just, like, regrows and she's like, you know, just kind of going through the things that like, every go through, but it's through, like, it's kind of, like, heightened in a very grotesque kind of way. Yeah, but, yeah, so that fish out of water story is definitely prevalent in a lot of my animated shorts and a lot of my pilots and samples [00:13:30] Speaker B: and scripts and stuff, because we're talking about it. I mean, you mentioned, like, in Generals, like, you tell this story. How. How do you pitch yourself? Like, what is the. Or does it depend on who you're talking to? [00:13:45] Speaker A: No, I mean, I think I am who I am, you know, and so I feel like I kind of. I think no matter what story you're telling, there's always something from somebody's experience that is going to be helpful and relevant to the room or to the project, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think in general is I just kind of, like, tell them who I am, but then also I think, like. Or, like, tell them that story that you just heard, but then also kind of go into, like, when I started at Adult Swim, you know. You know, and it's like, I just started as a T3, which is basically like a glorified internship. And, like, nobody knew who the hell I was. I was like, just out of college. I had done a bunch of internships, but that was pretty much. Was like, very much Like, I didn't know anyone emailed my resume into the black void on the Internet and somehow got a response back. But yes, I was like, going around the building, I was like, I want to write, I want to write, I want to write. But I was just like a PA getting lunch and like, doing, you know, voiceover record scripts, stuff like that. And. But yeah, I found a stack of scripts outside of somebody's office, and I was like, oh, my God, amazing. If I want to be a better writer, I've got to read a bunch of scripts. I knocked on that person's door and I was like, hey, can I read these? And that person was Mike Lazo. And he was like, who the fuck are you? I was like, oh, I'm in T3. Like, I just want to read these together. [00:15:15] Speaker C: You're like, so? So my parents, like, my dad was on a carnival cruise and. [00:15:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but he's like, you know, he's like, I was gonna throw those out. You want to read my trash? Okay, fine, go read my trash. And I was like, okay, they're like, I'm using your pen. I don'. I have no hangs up hang ups. You know, I'm like, okay, sure, fine. But I kept doing that every single week. And then eventually he was like, okay, wait, like, if you're gonna do this, like, let's talk about it. What did you, like? What did you not like? What? You know, and then that kind of like, turned into a mentorship with Lazo, which was, you know, kind of crazy because all I had heard at that point is that, like, angry man. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, also, I think he's very. It was very cursing at that point. And again, I'm used to Europeans. I think we got to relate on that. [00:16:05] Speaker C: Yeah, you're able to, like, deal with curmudgeons, essentially through your culture. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I think partially I am one as well. A little bit. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:13] Speaker A: But yeah, I. Yeah, that kind of, like, turned into a mentorship. And it's kind of like I've just, like, learned so much from Lazo and like, you know what it takes to, like, the reason why Adult Swim even started is because he just has no attention span and was like, get bored every two seconds and is like, you know, it was like that thing of like, well, if you can't make an audience laugh, like, surprise them, you know? And I think he had just gotten to that point of like. I think especially at that time when Adult Swim started, like, we had seen a Bunch of sitcoms. We had seen a bunch of, you know, even they were using like old footage of animated shows that it's like the same thing over and over and over again. And so just kind of like reusing that in a surprising way, I think is like, you know, helped Adult Swim, like, take off and help kind of establish the tone of the brand. Anyway, how do they. [00:16:57] Speaker B: Random question. How do they make those intros, those like, title sequences for Adult Swim? [00:17:05] Speaker A: Which one? Like the interstitial. [00:17:06] Speaker B: You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, like the. But like those, those very brief, like the super unique. [00:17:11] Speaker C: It's like two to three seconds. Yeah. [00:17:13] Speaker B: Super quick. [00:17:15] Speaker A: So I used to work. So when I worked at Adult Swim, I worked for the on air promo department. And so we made everything you. You saw on the network that wasn't a TV show. So I did. Exactly. [00:17:25] Speaker B: That's the right question. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So you are asking the right question. Yeah. So the interstitial, I mean, the reason why I'm asking is because, like, there's so many different interstitials and I'm like, well, which one exactly? Because I can tell you exactly who worked on it. [00:17:36] Speaker C: It's like, like the transitional. [00:17:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:17:38] Speaker C: Sort of thing. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. About. [00:17:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So we had like some of the. We have like, I think, like kind of three different types of interstitials. One of them was the, the time lapse ones where like you hide the logo in there somewhere and you have to kind of try to find it. So there's that. And then when I worked there, the two things that I worked on the most were. Well, the. I worked on the bumps, which are those black and white text cards. They're like the 15 second jokes. And it's just like, you know, black background, white text. You have 15 seconds to like, say something funny or surprise the audience or, you know, it was kind of. And Lazo and this other amazing writer Cahill, kind of started it by being like, like, if they're talking, you know, it's like your TV screen is talking to you. Which, like now with social. Social media and stuff, that's not really a thing. But like Adult Sim was really the first one to do it and to do it in like a snarky, surprising way. And that's also great because it was very much like, like, I'm not a stand up. But it felt like stand up boot camp. You know, you're. You have to come in. Yeah, you have 15 seconds. You got to come in. With like, at least seven a week. Lazo hates everything and he has no qualms about killing your shit. But it just made you a really good. You know, it was kind of like boot camp. Like, it just made you really good at, like, being funny. Of, like, knowing how to pivot, of being like, okay, you liked this, but not this. I can change the joke to that. [00:18:58] Speaker B: What. What were those notes like? Was he like, this is the worst thing I've ever heard. And you're like, okay, I gotta go write something better. Or is like, this is the worst thing I've ever heard. This, this and that. Maybe try this. [00:19:09] Speaker A: No, it was definitely. Well, I never had that problem. No, I'm kidding. No, I think it's definitely like, you know, sometimes the notes would never be. The notes would either be like, this is dumb. Gray, that, like. Like, cut it out. Or the notes would be like, get more specific. Or. Oftentimes what was really fun is that a bump would then start a conversation in the writers room, like an argument about something. Like, I remember one time I wrote one about how, like, I think nighttime showers are superior to morning showers and it is a hill that I will die on. And so in that room, I started arguing with everybody else. And he was like, I love it. You should do the exact same thing, but then just change day to night and then have people fight over it. Like, stab the two promos. Like. Like, we'll just do them like, back to back. Or like, you know. Cause someone watching it will be like, wait, didn't they. Weren't they just a proponent of daytime? Like, it's very subtle. [00:20:08] Speaker C: Obviously, it's such a fun room to be in, and it's not even like, making the main shows, you know? Like, it seems like this guy, he. Because of his brain and the way that his brain works and needs to be entertained every 15 seconds and he's impatient and all that. Like, it's almost like his brainchild where, like, every interstitial, every intro is, like, going to be entertaining. Have a punchline. Yeah, Luke, as you mentioned, it's very stand up. I'm curious, like, if your humor aligned with that or, like, what was your sense of humor going into that? Do you think your sense of humor has been crafted by working in early Adult Swim? And, like, how. How was that adjustment? And was it easy at first? Tell us about that. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, I myself was kind of. You know, I had that job right out of college, and I myself was kind of figuring that out as well and figuring out my voice as a writer. But I think, I mean, I think it absolutely influenced me. I think it just also helped give me, because I've always been Eastern European, had this humor, but I guess I didn't necessarily know where to put it. And at the time I had been doing a lot of. I was in Atlanta because that's where the adult sim headquarters is, and I had been doing a bunch of live action sketch and performing improv and yada yada. And I think it was like, like, for me, the thing that, like, really helped me become or like, take my, my writing career seriously. It's always something that I wanted to do, but I was always kind of like, afraid of it a little bit, you know, even though I was a writer. But then I think, like, the thing that really helped me be like, put these ideas down was figuring out like, structure. So I did a bunch of sketch writing in the beginning and, and that is amazing because there's like what, like seven different types of, you know, there's like fish out of water, one upping each other, like, you know, just like, like watch any like, Monty Python thing. And yeah, just learning that structure really helped because I'd have like a funny idea in my head, but I wouldn't know how to get it out or what the best way was. And then I feel like when I learned about structure, I'm like, okay, this is the joke. I could tell it like seven different ways. Which one works best? I'm like, oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, obviously it depends on the joke, but some really work better than others. And just as you get better at like working on something and kind of like distilling an idea down, I think really helped me kind of become a better writer. And I feel like the same thing with the, with the bumps, you know, I'd have like a funny joke, but it's like, okay, how do you say that in 15 seconds? How do you whittle it down so much? And then how do you just like, surprise or make people laugh or, or totally disturb them, you know? [00:22:53] Speaker C: Yeah, it's not their option. [00:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's so social media forward, which is interesting. And it was so ahead of its time. Yeah, like, how do you distill something down? Like, social media is all about, if you can tell a joke in 15 seconds, tell it in 15 seconds. Don't push it to a minute or 45 seconds or two minutes. [00:23:10] Speaker C: Yeah, people get bored so fast. [00:23:11] Speaker B: You'll get bored. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. And then the other thing that I did at Adult Swim was I produced and, like, creator directed the animated IDs, which are, like the 30 second to, like, minute long. They're also interstitials. Another one of our interstitials. But, yeah, those are just like, we would just, like, work with an animator. And the only rule was that, like, the Adult Swim logo had to come at the end. And when I came on and started producing those, it was really exciting because I got to work with so many different talented animators. But the thing that I realized, and any animators listening, I love you. You're amazing. But some animators are like, I have the most brilliant idea for a scene. And then you're like, that's amazing. What happens before and after. And they're like, I don't know. But this scene, this shot's gonna be so cool, right? [00:24:09] Speaker C: Like, they're, like, so visual. Like, they're so, like, I'm imagining this one thing, but you're trying to be like, okay, let's think about the audience. We need to, like, ease them into something and then, you know, create stakes. All that stuff that, like, a writer brain thinks of. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Exactly. And I think, like, Even though it's 15 seconds, you still need a beginning, middle, and end. And so kind of my job was to, like, just help their vision, like, help support their vision through the structure of writing and just trying to be like, okay, like, this is a really cool shot. Why do you want to tell this shot? What is. What's behind it? What is this character going through? What is. You know, what can we kind of say leading up to that? Like, this was a really surprising shot. What can we put before it so that, like, you wouldn't even see it coming? You know, it's things like that where it's like, getting to collaborate with. With other creators, which was amazing. I loved it. But, yeah, I think just like, bringing kind of a story structure to a really cool idea is the thing that I think unlocks a lot of your creativity. And I kind of did the same thing when then I started working with. I mean, you know, truly. Sometimes I felt like I was doing that with the bumps with. When I was working with Laza. Like, Laza would sometimes have, like, a crazy idea for something. He's like, I don't know, Go write it. Go figure it out. And you're like, okay, great. But then you would. And he'd be like, taking. I would just take chaos in, filter it, and then use story structure to kind of make, like, build it out into an actual thing that we could shoot that. We could. [00:25:34] Speaker C: I love that it's such a valuable position, being a writer in that room of, like, very visual people who want to just, like, make an emotional thing, but you're like, okay, let's, you know, ease into it. All that. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think just. It's like, just supporting that vision, I think, is the thing that I got most excited about. And it was kind of the same thing with. So then at this point, it was like. Well, I had worked in a. I was in a writer's room called Bird Girl. I was just, like, a writer's assistant at the time. But then I kept, like, pitching stuff, and then I got an episode, which was amazing. And then I was still in Atlanta at the time, but coming out to LA for work. I was just kind of, like, going back and forth for a while. And then the pandemic hit, and I was like, oh, my God, this is the worst thing in the world for my career. What am I going to do? But then I. I had met Michael Cusack when he came to the office to Adult Swim once because he wanted to make a bump, and I kind of taught him how to make a bump. And. And he had seen, like, my short lizard queen that I made, and I obviously was a huge fan. Like, YOLO was already underway. I had been watching all the animatics because I'm nosy, and I just, like. I loved. I love that show so much. I mean, like, two women who get to be gross as hell. Like, that's my dream show. That is, like, I love that you, like, never get to see that, you know, and it was just so funny and. Yeah, but so he had written. I think they had done the first six episodes, and I think they were stuck on, like, he was stuck on the finale, and he was dealing with a bunch of other stuff. And at that point, production was already underway and he hadn't written the finale, and he was focusing on production stuff, and I was like, you know what? Let's just. We can bounce ideas back and forth. Like, this is what I do for the animated ideas all the time. Like, let's just bounce ideas back and forth and, like, get, like, a structure out at least, so then you can, like, write your script. So we did that. [00:27:23] Speaker C: And you're. Are you. This is when you're still just doing the bumps and he's come to visit Atlanta. Are you working for the show? [00:27:29] Speaker A: No, no, no. Just. I was still working at adults at the time. [00:27:32] Speaker C: Okay. [00:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:33] Speaker C: Cool. [00:27:34] Speaker A: And, like, making my own stuff on the side. And things like that. But yeah, I. So. But that was like a little bit after that because then he came before the pandemic, obviously, and then everything, like, the pandemic shut everything down. [00:27:47] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:48] Speaker A: But then y. We had just like, we just Skyped and we just would like, Skype for like three, four hours at a time and kind of like, figure out, like, what are you trying to say with this? What's the structure? Like, what are we trying to accomplish with this short? Because we were like, can it be like a two part finale? You know, like, because every episode is 15 minutes. So I'm like, man, to really do this, we need the Runway to have like a two parter. And yeah, that ended up. That turned into like me and him co writing an episode together, which was amazing. And then. Yeah. And then after that, he kind of needed the same sort of thing with. With Koala man and so helped write the pilot. Helped him with the pilot on that. And then, you know, it was just like, like, I just like love being in a room and I just love getting to. Even if it's like just getting to collaborate and like bounce things off with another person is so huge. And, you know, everyone kind of. Every writer kind of needs that. So, like, if you're a writer, get a writer's group, get a. You know. [00:28:46] Speaker C: Totally. [00:28:47] Speaker A: That's like so, so important in tv. [00:28:49] Speaker C: Definitely. It's like essential. [00:28:51] Speaker A: And I think even in features, like, I don't know, like, like, it is such a collaborative thing and you're. It's a medium where, like, you're literally writing something for somebody else to see and to experience. So I think, like, in order to get like, hey, like a temperature check, like, hey, how are people experiencing this? Is it going the way that I want? [00:29:09] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:29:10] Speaker A: Am I telling the story I want to be telling? I think it's important. Totally. [00:29:14] Speaker B: Do you animate? Do you know how to animate? [00:29:16] Speaker A: Well, so that is kind of like on the next leg of the. That's like a little bit further down at this point. But after I worked on Koala man. Yeah, we. I was in the room. But when you were. [00:29:27] Speaker B: When you were making those original projects started to jump in. So you. Were you tapping animators that you had met or. That was live action? It was all live action. [00:29:35] Speaker A: The. Yeah, so the sketches I did were all live action. I had done one animated short and that, like, I had. I scrounged up $3 or whatever, a small production budget to. Yeah. Pay some animators to help me make it. [00:29:49] Speaker B: And those animators were from Adult Swim, I assume, or you just found people they were from. [00:29:55] Speaker A: They were interns at Boomerang at the time because they were. Adult Swim didn't even really have animators in house at this point. Now they do. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:30:02] Speaker A: But this was, like, even before. Before all that. And it's so funny because I remember I was like, well, I'm just, like, a comedy person. Like, I wonder if I'm, like, barking up the wrong tree making this animated short. And it's like, nope. Because I feel like making that short really, like, is the thing that, like, kind of, like, changed my career. [00:30:19] Speaker C: That was. That was Lizard Queen. [00:30:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that was Lizard Queen. Yeah. So that was, you know, amazing. And it's like, I made that, and it's very much like every time I make something, I'm like, oh, my God, this is it. The money and success and the riches will immediately follow as soon as I hit upload to YouTube. And it's like, yeah, it doesn't work like that. But I think just, like, people just seeing that I was willing to things and, you know, I'm such a huge stepping stone. Yeah. And I'm like. I'm such a huge, like, script nerd. You know, Like, I really can get into, like. Like, when I worked on. So we had done, like, a season of Koala man virtually, and then when we had done it for season two, they. We met in person. And so that's when I, like, I officially, officially moved out to la. And on that show I worked with. Our showrunners were Dan Hernandez and Benji Sammet, who are. They're amazing showrunners. They've done so many things. They wrote the Detective Pikachu movie. They wrote Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. They wrote so many things. They're amazing. And the thing that I loved so much about them is that they're also very structured nerds like I am. And I think just being able. Because when you're a writer, you're breaking the script altogether, but then you still take it away, go away for a week, and then write it. And I just want to be so faithful to the structure that we've set, but then while also kind of adding your own spin on it. And also sometimes when you have the blueprints of something, but then when you're building it, you're like, oh, I actually think that we need something here. And anyway, so that is the kind of, like, script nerd that I am. But then I realized. So they kept me on for season two after the room wrapped. They kept me on throughout Production, which is really exciting because it was kind of like showrunner finishing school. That's what it felt like because I was also doing my own development at the time and it was just such a cool experience. And then I realized, oh, the same way we break something in a room, then I go away to write the script, some stuff, you know, you. The script, the story gets molded in between those two processes, right? But then even after that, when it goes from you to then the animation team, that also. The story also gets kind of influenced and molded even more. And that's where I got to see so much of the production. Just like the heavy lifting of, like, what production does. And also how, like, having to keep track of everything in the story when you're like, we're writing 10 episodes, there's so many things going on. There's so many assets going on. There's like, I have to kind of keep everything straight. And like, also be like, okay, what did we talk about in that room? Like, how did we want that villain to look? Someone said something, okay, now I gotta go back and go talk to the character designer and be like, oh, we were actually imagining it more like this. Anyways. All that to say is like, I think when you're bringing something to life, I think that the story kind of changes and molds as it goes along. And I think that's kind of where I realized, like, oh, man, I love being a writer, but then I also have to become an animator. Because, like, then when someone can something, when someone can see it on its feet, it just has like a whole new life to it. And then also you yourself kind of see it in a different way. You know, like, the blueprints for something can look very different than like what the actual product looks. Or maybe it looks similar, but something about, like when you. When you. When it's actually like tangible just. Or visual and like right in front of you, it just kind of like takes on a whole different life. And again, has those characteristics that you didn't even know were in there when you were in, like, the script writing process. And so, yeah, that's. I literally, last summer I taught myself how to animate. And the way. [00:33:59] Speaker B: Do you use anime? [00:34:01] Speaker A: I just use Flash or animate. Adobe Animate. And I had. Because of doing, like from doing. From editing the bumps. That's another thing. It's like you're not just writing the bumps, you're also editing them. And when you're editing them, that teaches you so much about, like, timing and cutting to a beat and like, the music is, like, such a huge, huge part of it. So I. Yeah, so I learned how to edit in Premiere, but then also in After Effects and obviously in, like, Photoshop and stuff. But I think I just realized, like, oh, Adobe Animate is kind of, like, the same sort of, like, language, you know? Like, it's basically just understanding the language that the program works in. And I'm like, okay, I know. I know about layers. I know how to, like, kind of puppet things. I know how to, like, let's figure this out. And, yeah, so I did. So I made. My first was called Cosmic Zoom, and it's about a girl getting a birth chart reading over zoom that goes terribly wrong, which is based off of something that did happen to me. But, yeah, I think, you know, that just taught me so much about, like, again, like, writing something, and it's like, it has to be funny on the page, but then also, like, getting to perform it and getting to actually, like, see it and see the characters. Like, once I. Once I drew. I drew, like, the rough characters, and then I immediately. I was like, oh, I know what their voices sound like. And because I did the voices for both of them. [00:35:27] Speaker B: So you wrote. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:35:28] Speaker B: Directed, like, animated, and starred in this. [00:35:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I did the whole thing. So the one thing I did not do is the sound design. I had an amazing Romanian sound designer, Anna Roman. [00:35:39] Speaker C: There we go. [00:35:39] Speaker A: And she did some. She did the music and all the bangle jingles that you hear. Yeah. [00:35:46] Speaker B: Was that enough collaboration for you? Because you've mentioned how much you enjoy collaborating throughout the entire process. [00:35:55] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, because I think, like. I think I just treated myself like a. Like, another collaborator, you know? Like, I think it's like, just kind of in this business, you have to, like, wear so many different hats. And I was like, okay, so this is kind of the goal that I want to get to. This is the joke that I'm trying to get to, or this is the kind of character I'm trying to. To build. Like, I just kind of do that. Like, I think it becomes, like, separate from me. It's almost like I'm collaborating with the script or with the project. Like, it becomes another thing. And I think when you're working on other people's shows and even, like, collaborating with other people, it's like, the goal isn't, like. The goal is just to make this project be the best thing that it possibly can be. And so, you know, it's always fun, but you do kind of have to be, like, ruthless, even to yourself. Like, definitely, like the killing, killing of your darlings and all that stuff, but also just like getting real with like, okay, what is in my limitations and how can I make that funny? And I think that's another thing I learned from Adult Swim is like, you know, Adult Swim was like, a lot of the shows have like a shoestring budget and are like, reusing animation or, you know, or literally just like photoshopping text on black cards and editing it in Premiere. Like, it could be that, like lo fi, you know, but it's just about how you use it and how you're able to use those limitations to your advantage. And I actually think creativity is easier when you do give yourself some limitations because you're like, okay, this is the realm that I can work in. What can I do within that that's funny or that's interesting or that's, you know, because sometimes when things are just so open ended and you're like, you can do whatever you want, you're like, well, shit, I got to think about it for a couple years. And you're like, no, what is something you want to tell this story in this amount of time using the limited skills that you have, like, what can you do? I can. I know how layers work. Okay, great. Let's see if we can use that to, to put it in anime and see if something. If you can build something through that. And I will say, like, I also had so much help from, you know, moving out to la. We went to Silver Lake shorts a lot. And I met so many other, like, animator friends through that. And, you know, just being able to ask them, like, oh, my God, like, can you just sit down with me for an afternoon and show me how to. How does animate work? Like, I kind of understand it, but can you just, like, tell me things? And I sat down with my, like, really good friends, Lindsay Lindsey DeMars, who's an incredible animator, like, on a whole other way, professional level. Like, she has. She is a storyboard artist. And I would just be like, can you just show me how to, like, how would you set up your files? And she would even send me some of her old files for other animations that she's done. And I would just like sit there and kind of study and break it down. I'm like, okay, so this character is on one layer, this background's on another layer. But this is a loop. Or this is how you do a line boil. [00:38:52] Speaker B: This is like breaking down a script. It's like analyzing. [00:38:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I also did a lot. Like I think the one thing that I, every time, if I'm like mentoring a younger writer, getting like coffee with someone and they're like, oh my God, like, what do I do? I'm like, okay, well, so you take the two. Like, if you're writing a script or writing a pilot, you take the two. It's always like, it's this show meets this show, you know, which, like, usually is like tone, but also kind of like similar things that happen. Or like, if it's a family sitcom, then obviously one of your shows should be a family sitcom anyways. Then I would just, I would just watch both of those pilots like a million times and break it down scene by scene. Like, I would literally just do like, I would do reverse do like the three act structure. [00:39:37] Speaker C: It's like hacking the system almost. [00:39:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, well, because it's like that's what the writers did to build this. So then how can you, you know, like, even in, like there's so many scripts that you can find online, they always have like, Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. Even though, like now for streaming, you don't. People don't necessarily need that anymore, but I think like, real writers still want to keep that in there because, like, you need those guardrails. You need to know, like, where are we at? Tonally, where are we at? Like, even like in the story? Like, that's how you know, like, is this going to wrap up in this episode or is this going to build up to something else later? Like where you put. [00:40:07] Speaker C: I do still think that you need to know structure very well to break? Like, I think that's part of it. So we've, we've covered so much already and it seems like one, one through line that I'm seeing is that you are constantly as an artist trying to just expand the breadth of what you know and your work. Like, you started doing a very specific thing at Adult Swim and then you offer to read some scripts and you're thinking about structure all of a sudden. And then you're, you know, you're, you're pitching on shows and then you're working on shows and now you're trying to animate. Like, it seems like you're constantly just trying to expand the breadth of your work. And you, you also mentioned development, which is a very specific process and generals and all that. And as you kind of work your way up as a, as a writer now, having been in a few rooms and making your own stuff, I'm curious, like, what is, what is that development process? Like, what Is the. How do you see the breadth of your work at this point and manage projects on various levels? And how. Also, like, how does representation fit into that? That's always a question we like to ask because in a way, those are other collaborators, you know, in your career. So I'm curious about all of that. And start wherever you want. [00:41:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think. I think I've always. The goal has always been to be a showrunner. Like, that is always, like, the thing that I've wanted to do the most. Like, I want to create shows, but I also love the production side of it. And I think, like, really good writers, like, the funniest writers, you know, can't always be a showrunner. It's just, like, another skill that you have to develop in terms of, like, learning how to manage a staff, how to have all the gears running and moving, and it's like learning how to look at, like, the big picture, but also the very small details. So for me, like, that's always been the goal. Even when I was, like, writing bumps at Adult Swim, you know, And I'm like, I think my thing is always like, okay, how do I. I have this really big goal. How do I get. How do I get to there? And I think it's just kind of like figuring out what. What. What would I be doing as a showrunner, right? Like, I'd be, like, writing scripts. Okay, great. Then I'm gonna get phenomenal at writing scripts. And how do I do that? I'm gonna read scripts. How do I, like, know, like, how to analyze it? But beyond that, I'm going to break those scripts down. I'm going to, you know, like, I think it's just kind of taking, like, you know, it's a thing you've heard a million times, but it's like taking a really big goal but then, like, boiling it down to, like, what I would be doing, like, day to day. [00:42:36] Speaker C: And I think from, like, almost visualizing yourself as the role, like, I'm seeing a lot of that, you know. [00:42:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And, like, just, like, developing your own skills for it. Like, you know, I didn't necessarily go to a school for film. Like, I did, like, film media studies and creative writing, but it wasn't necessarily, like. It wasn't. I knew that, like, at that time I was going to go to grad school, and so I was like, oh, I'll just save, like, the big school for. For grad school. And then I didn't end up going because I ended up getting jobs because I did six internships in college because I was just like, I don't care what it is. Like, I'll do it and I'll learn how to do it and then I'll use that and then that internship will help me get the next internship and then that internship will help me get the next one right. And so I think it's just kind of, I've just taken that same approach to everything in my career, you know. And like now I think especially with being on Koala man and like being on through throughout the production process where I realized like, oh, so much of the show and of the creation continues on within the production process. And that's like kind of what a showrunner does. Like, okay, well then the only thing, if I want to be a creator, the thing that's going to make me a better creator is to start creating things now. And so, you know, animation is something where like I like, I love all kinds of writing. Like, I like, I started, I was more of a comedy writer, but like I said, now I'm doing, I'm animating stuff. I'm also trying to explore like a one hour drama. I'm trying to explore some other things and I think it's just about making the project so that people can see it, but also like, so that you learn like what goes into it. And like it's like reverse engineering something, you know, to figure out like how, what's the best way to approach this big idea that I have. Like, I'm learning how to animate. I also like, the thing that I want to do next is I want to make like a, a narrative like podcast series. Like I think those are brilliant. I think like, what an amazing way to get like a proof of concept out there for your like dramatic show. Like, because I'm not necessarily a stand up and I'm not necessarily like an actress, but I can make stuff. I know how to produce things and I know how to get shit done. So those are the things that are in my. [00:44:42] Speaker B: Yeah, seriously. [00:44:43] Speaker A: But those are things that are in my control. You know, I can't control how the industry is going. I can't control what's going on outside of me. But what I can't control is like the things that I'm making and how I can bring them to life and get them in front of people. And you know, with Lizard Queen, like, because I have made that animated short that like, is what helped me get, that's what helped me get my reps. That's what helped me get, you know, seeing Having Michael see that, being like, oh, yeah, this girl's an animation girl. Cool. Like, you know, and just constantly making stuff like, you know, I'm not saying it's like, the best short in the world, but, like, that. That just, like, helped give me such a calling card, you know, where people are like, oh, yeah, she made that thing. And then also, like, even, like, even beyond that, like, I ended up going on to develop Lizard Queen and got to work with, like, some, like, really cool big names on that. And, like, the way that I just realized, like, oh, the thing that got me the furthest along was something that I had animated or I didn't animate. Sorry. That I had produced, that I had [00:45:46] Speaker C: made, but that you did yourself. It wasn't from being in a specific room or knowing a specific person. It was like that thing that you did by yourself at the beginning. [00:45:54] Speaker A: Exactly. And it's kind of like, you know, I know I sound, like, so confident and all this stuff, but I'm like, truly, a lot of my career is like, well, what the hell else am I doing? I don't know. I guess I'll do this, and then hopefully it'll pan out later on, and I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'll learn on the job, and I'll learn through the process and make mistakes. [00:46:12] Speaker C: Nobody has any idea what they're doing. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Nobody has any idea. [00:46:16] Speaker B: You've worked with some, like, incredibly established people. What have you learned from them? And perhaps there's a trait or a through line that you see with all of them that maybe you've applied to your own work or aspire to be like. Or apply to your. Your career at some point. [00:46:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think. Oh, man, that's like. I mean, I think, like. Like, truly, I think the. The people that I think about a lot are like my. My old showrunners just because they're so, like. Like, on Koala Man, Dana, Benji. Just because. Just getting to see how they're able to. To work and to keep, like, every single time on Koala man, it was like we had a. You know, we'd have, like, an inter. Like, we'd have one idea for a villain, but then, like, three different ways where the episode could go. And sometimes it's like feeling that structurally and seeing what works best. But then I would always see them turn to Michael and be like, michael, what feels best? What feels right for you as the creator? And it's like, yeah, like, you definitely need to know the structure. You definitely need to know all Those things. But eventually when you are at a crossroads, it is like that creative instinct that you have cultivated over time over, like making so many shorts. [00:47:29] Speaker C: Kind of the problem solving element of it all. [00:47:31] Speaker A: Yeah, the problem solving. But I think like this is also like the more like the emotional side. Like sometimes you're like, well, when you have like three different options of like where an idea could go, you're like, well, which one means the most? Which one's going to like land and resonate with people the most? And also just like, I don't know which one's the most interesting to tell. You know, like sometimes you just have like this gut feeling. It's like that gut creative instinct. Like it's kind of the same thing with like even like when I was like creative producing the animated ideas or like even helping out my, my animator friends. It'll be like, I'll see a shot and I'm like, okay. I don't really know why, but this looks off. Just move it here, like slightly to the left. And now it's perfect. Okay, great. And I like, sometimes now I can, you know, as you go, as you learn more in your career, now I'm able to be like, oh, yeah, well, the composition was totally wrong and that's why I noticed it. But you don't always necessarily have like the language for that, you know, when you're first starting out. But I think you just develop that over time and just kind of all the structure stuff that you're learning kind of like just helps your creative instinct, I think. [00:48:33] Speaker B: How does. Just pulling it back for a sec too. But like, how, how does script writing for, like you said you just wrote like a drama, like a 60, you know, 60 minute hour long drama. How does writing differ when it comes to like a 15 minute animated episode? Or does it. Not at all. [00:48:54] Speaker A: I mean, obviously it does. But I think to me, like, I think I'll say like the one question that I always got a lot, which I think is probably why I'm also being like, because I'm so stubborn. I'm like, well, yeah, I can't write live action drama is because people are always like, you know, like, oh, well, writing like a adult animated script is very different from writing like a live action comedy script. And I'm like, no, it's not. It's like literally all the same. Like, people will be like, oh, there's more description in it. I was like, no, there's not. What are you talking about? It, like, it has to be tight. It has to be like, you know, it's kind of like the same rules apply for like a comedy in like a live action comedy script. You know, obviously that being said is like the limitations of like, what you can and can't do. Like, you can draw an explosion way easier than you can. [00:49:39] Speaker C: You can't have someone's head, like, get ripped off or whatever in live action. Not as hard. I'm always like, how can we, how [00:49:47] Speaker A: can we rub their heads up? You loved Hereditary then, didn't you? [00:49:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Love it all. No, but I think, like, yeah, I don't know. To me, I think like, as a writer, it's like just understanding the, like, the structure of what I'm, of what I'm walking into, you know, But I think like, truly the skills are pretty much the same. Like, I am a writer and I think, I think I can write anything because I've know I've learned how to like, boil something down and being. And be like, okay, so this is like the scaffolding of the script. This is how they, they did that. This is how many characters they had. This is how long their scenes were. This is how, like, this is where their act breaks were. The last act break was way shorter than the other ones. Like, just kind of like learning those things. Like, you know, that's kind of like more the analytical side. And I think, and I think people think that there's like such a big divide between being like, analytical and creative. But I don't, I feel like it [00:50:42] Speaker C: with writing, it's like it becomes so mathematical. Right? [00:50:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:46] Speaker C: It's kind of like the engineer brain come in and. Yeah, into effect. [00:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I think you just gotta have, [00:50:52] Speaker B: I think you gotta have space for both, though. Like, you gotta be able to put on both hats of like one time, like, like you said, Anka, of like leaning into the, the emotions and the feelings and what feels right or even what looks right in your head and then going the way more analytical, like structurally and breaking it. [00:51:07] Speaker C: Of like, why isn't this working? Let's make sure. Oh, we're missing a scene here or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah. [00:51:12] Speaker A: The thing that I've heard so many, like, upper writers say, upper level writers say is like, you know, you gotta like, know the rules really well to like, break them. And like, that's basically what you're doing. Like, you have to learn the rules super, super well. So that, like, then, you know, like, oh, I'm telling this kind of story, but we've seen that story so many times, it would be surprising if at the end I turned a different way or it would, you know, like. But I think that's like, all in support of it. I think, at least for me, it's like knowing the analytics of it gives me. Gives me the freedom to be creative. Because then I know, like, okay, this thing has to happen by Act 3. What's, like, the coolest way to get there? [00:51:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's important. I think it's important. You know, creativity and parameters a lot of times leads to a lot of freedom in that. I have a question kind of specific. We, our audience is a lot of, like, aspiring filmmakers, maybe folks making their first short films. I would love to ask you, you know, maybe there's someone in college right now who's never animated something, but they want to make an animated short, whether it's 15 seconds or a couple minutes or just, I don't know, I guess a couple minutes would take a year and a half. But, like, you know, something very doable. What, what is your. Like, if there's like a step by step, just like, here's, you're starting today. This is what you do, and then this is what you do at the end or does I know when it's over, when it's done or something? [00:52:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think for making a short specifically, I would learn structure. Like, like sketch structure. Like watch like Monty Python Watch. Like. Yeah, I mean, like, we all know at this point, like an SNL sketch and, you know, there's like a premise, three beats of an escalation, then the resolution, and then like a quick button and you're out of there. I think just, like, learning those things just help learning those, like, kind of like guardrails is going to help you articulate a big idea that you have into something that's actually doable. And so I think I would start there, figure out like, like you, like, you probably. If you're making. If you want to make a short, you probably already have an idea. If you have an idea, just like, you know, sit down and brainstorm every traumatic thing that's ever happened to you and mind that. But even if you're a comedy writer, like, that is where the funniest, darkest shit comes from. But yeah, and then I think, like, if in terms of like, learning how to animate something specifically, I think like, starting small is. Is helpful. Like, I started out, the first thing that I wanted to do, I was like, okay, I'm just going. My first short, it's only going to be three and a half minutes long, and it's going to have 10 characters in it. And, like, you know, and talking to my friend Lindsay, she's like, look at some shorter stuff. Like, you know, look at. Also, so many people are posting animated shorts online. Like, look like. Look at a studio. Look at Smalls. Look at, like, going to come up with stuff. Like, you know, I think just, like, seeing what other people are doing, being like, okay, this one that's 30 seconds long is doing really great. How can I Write something in 30 seconds that's funny and punchy? But then also, I'll say, like, the first thing that you write is going to be really long. I think one of the things I learned from Adult Swim is one thing that, like, Cahill used to say a lot. Who's one of the guys that created the bumps is like, oh, I. I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have enough time. And I think, like, if you want something that's, like, really condensed and distilled and clean, that takes time. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:54:40] Speaker A: And so it's like, it is kind of like, I just see it as, like, I'm getting, like, a. I have, like a. I'm throwing, like, a bunch of clay together, and then I'm, like, slowly taking stuff away to kind of, like, reveal the idea that it is that I want to get to. And, like, you know, yeah, of course it sucks to, like, throw some stuff away or, like, start over or whatever, but, like, you can always save that for later. Like, there's plenty of stuff where. I mean, I don't, like, really, like, reuse stuff, but, like, there's plenty of stuff of, like, sentiments or an idea that, like, doesn't fit in this script. And I'm like, you know what? I can just make that its own script. That's fine. And I can explore it even further. And I can. Yeah. So I think just, like, taking the time to get, like, a really solid script and, like, this is really annoying, but it's like, doing the homework, doing the script breakdown is, like, so, so helpful. It's just gonna teach you so much and just, like, give you a roadmap, basically, of, like, how to make your short. [00:55:29] Speaker B: On the animation front, are there YouTubers or tutorials out there that people can find? Or is it really just you go on Adobe Animate and you figure it out? [00:55:40] Speaker A: I have. I looked at a bunch of different tutorials. Like, I didn't even really. I mean, like, I can. I can probably dig some up, but, like, I don't have, like, a specific person. I use, like, I literally was just like, lip sync in animate. How do you do that? And then I saw how people did it, and I was like, oh, yeah, amazing. And then I think just, like, seeing, like, obviously a lot of stuff that I do is, like, very, like, puppeted, because I know how, like, After Effects works, and it's just easier for me to do it like that versus, like, there's some animators that can like, draw frame by frame, which honestly is way easier. So if you're listening, you should just do that. If you can kind of draw by frame is easier a little bit. Just because, like, you know, for. I think a lot of my animation is, like, I try to make it look very. I'll be fully honest, I'm ripping off BoJack Horseman. Okay. I love Lisa Hanawal. I 100% being like, I love the way that she draws bodies. I love the, like, I'll find character designs and, like, study them and, like, just kind of like, you know, because I'm not, like, I really. I didn't even draw before I started animating, you know, so I'm just. I'm really just figuring this shit out as I go along and. But, like, there's some, like, other animation styles are more like, you know, like, the noodley arms. Noodle y arms are so much easier to do for me. I like the more, like, adult animation, like, aesthetic because I especially. Because, like, I like going darker and I like going. You know, I think now that I'm starting to make actual, like, series, like, independent series online, I'm like, okay, maybe those noodle arms are coming back for me. But, you know, I think it's just kind of like learning just like. Yeah, even the same thing, like, like, breaking down scripts from amazing writers that have really inspired me. I do the same thing, like, with animation, like, what character design are they using? That's really interesting. That is. That's, like, doable for me. Like, sometimes it can be just like, a super simple way that, like, you draw eyes or, like, a lot of my characters, I'm like, I love. I love grotesque women. I just. And characters in general, but I just. I love the grotesque roughness of it. So all my characters, no matter their gender, is like, they'll have, like, huge bags under their eyes just because I think it's funny and a bunch of wrinkles and weird lines and like, that. And so that's just like, part of my animation style, because that's what I think is really funny. And I think it's just kind of like, Figuring out something like that. When you're looking at an anime, an animation, you're like, oh, I love the way that that character's like nose is shaped or body is shaped or their hair is so weird. [00:58:15] Speaker C: Yeah. Just by various places. [00:58:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And of course, like making it your own and stuff. But like, I think it's just, you know, I think when you're starting out and like that's how you're gonna like feel, figure it out. You know, it's just like, it's like anything. [00:58:27] Speaker C: It's like we talk to a lot of stand ups, you know, it's like, am I channeling this stand up or am I channeling this person, this sketch comedian? Like, it's kind of just fine. It's finding your voice, you know, and there's a whole visual thing too. Like we like, you are probably, you've probably found your voice as a writer more so than like a visual artist, you know? [00:58:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think like, you know, I'm excited to like keep going with that and just like keep making stuff because, you know, like, I'm not a stand up, but I like, I think it's great that like standups can just like get their voice out there. And that's like really why I just started animating is like I don't really want to be at a club at 3am for five minutes, you know, to get five minutes of stage time. But what I do want to do is like bring like I can make this animated short that, you know, might eat up every waking moment of my life, but I like have something that like people can like see what my voice sounds like and see what like both like literally, but also like what my writing voice sounds like, what my artistic voice sounds like, what kind of like sense of humor that I have and you know, just like your perspective on things. And I think that's been the most fun part of like making the animation is just like getting to like to bring it to life and like being such a huge nerd about the script. But then also now I get to be a huge nerd about the visuals too. [00:59:42] Speaker B: It's amazing. [00:59:43] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:59:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And I kind of want to do the same thing with the like a narrative podcast. I love like, like Q code stuff or like there's even this other one called like see you in hell that this writer put together. But it's like, I think it's great for like drama stuff because yeah, you can make a short for sure, but that also takes like a bunch of time. And money. But like, you can just make it, like if you. [01:00:02] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:00:03] Speaker A: If you hear it, then like, you can. [01:00:04] Speaker C: It's a. Yeah, you can do a lot with sound design too, sort of ambiance. I like narrative podcasts, kind of serving that purpose of like, this is a pretty cheap way to. I can just like get my actor friends to act in this and you know, then, you know, as a writer, I can sell it as. Yeah, it's like creating your own IP in a way. So I think that's super smart. [01:00:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And then with animation, you start out with like the audio, the radio play anyway, like every single time. So like. [01:00:32] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:00:33] Speaker A: It's just like kind of anything. If anything, it's less work. [01:00:37] Speaker C: Are you thinking of that, of that narrative podcast to be a sort of proof of concept for your hour long drama? Is that the thinking or is this a separate. [01:00:45] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. I mean, you know, I'm gonna try to. I'll probably have to do a smaller one because that one I'm writing as a sample. So I mean, I don't know, maybe, maybe I will just do it. It's just something I've been like, thinking about for so long and same thing with animating. Like, I was thinking about it for so long and then I was like, my God, woman, just fucking do it. And I feel like the same way, like, like now about this podcast thing. Like, like you really can do anything. Like you can just learn and just figure it out and just do it. Like, maybe I'm not. It's not gonna be like the best thing in the world. Cause I'm still like learning and figuring it out, but it'll be decent enough. And then there's always like collaborators and friends that you can kind of like ask for help or, you know. [01:01:28] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you'll learn so much from that process. Like, you learn the most when you've never done it and then you do it again, you try it again and you're like learning a little less, but you're much better. You're just kind of like refining and refining. So I like that attitude. [01:01:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there we go. [01:01:45] Speaker C: Well, I want to be conscious of time here. And we do end the podcast with asking one question, which I feel like we've discussed this a little bit, but we can kind of get into it even more. What is the dream for you? [01:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah, the. The dream is to be a showrunner, baby, and, and creator as well. But I think like, you know, and like for the projects I'm developing now, at this point, it's like, I'll, like, have to get a showrunner attached for the level that I'm at. But honestly, that, like, excites me so much because I'm like, then I get to learn from them. Like, I learned so much from Dan and Benji, and now, like, I'm working with some other showrunners on. On other projects, and I'm even learning from them, even just, like, throughout the pitching process of, like, how they approach a pitch. And, you know, they'll be like, oh, actually, the pitch. Like, basically, don't say anything in the pitch. Make it be as short as possible, and then they'll ask questions. I'm like, never thought about it. Like, it's crazy. That's crazy. You know? Yeah. I don't have to overdo it. They're like, you should know everything, but, like, you want to make them, like, lean in. [01:02:45] Speaker C: I'm like, hell, yeah. [01:02:47] Speaker A: My God, that's so. That's like, you know, so I think you're nobody. [01:02:50] Speaker C: Nobody. Yeah. I mean, execs are like, if the pitch is over, like, 30 minutes, they're gonna be like, what is going on? [01:02:56] Speaker A: No, but this is like, even under, like, under 20. They're like, keep as under 20 as you possibly can. [01:03:02] Speaker C: And I'm like, exactly. Let them lean in. Let them show curiosity. [01:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:05] Speaker C: Make it a conversation. [01:03:07] Speaker A: Because here's the other thing is, like, like, you know, we were talking about, like, writing and animating, but now I've had to do the same thing with pitching, which, like, I didn't know how to pitch. So what did I do? I just, like, asked to see a bunch of other pitches. And, like, I would, like, if my friends were pitching stuff, I'd be like, let's do a practice one. I can see how you do it. I asked my showrunners how they do it. Ask my reps. Like, what do you typically do in a pitch? And that's kind of like, again, you just, like, learn by doing. [01:03:29] Speaker C: Totally. [01:03:30] Speaker A: And you're always going to wish you started sooner. So just. If you're a college student listening, just start now. [01:03:35] Speaker B: It's amazing advice and also, like, the learn by doing. But you also clearly are not afraid or nervous or embarrassed to ask for help. [01:03:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:47] Speaker B: Ask people around you, friends, for advice or like, hey, I have this very specific question about how do I, you know, move this. This character from one side of the frame to the other? You know, and maybe there's a faster way to do that, which I think is incredible, too, because a lot of Times it's like, oh, I don't want to take their time, or I don't want them to think I'm an idiot or whatever it is. And it's like, yeah, that's. That's. That's amazing. [01:04:11] Speaker A: I think, too, with that. It's like, if you're going to ask somebody for their time, you should volunteer some of your time. So, like, if someone's helping me out with, with, like, my animation stuff, like, like, I'm a WGA writer, I can look at your script and help you, like, punch it up, or I can help you, tell you, like, you're stuck on this thing. I can. Let's talk. Let's like, spend an hour on the phone and I can talk you through it. And like, you know, like, I think it's kind of that, like the take a penny, leave a penny thing, you know, but like, in a creative kind of way where it's like, you know, an animator friend will help me out with something visually, I'll help them with the pitch or I'll help them with even just like, reading their script and giving feedback. Sometimes that's the most important part of the process. [01:04:50] Speaker C: Yeah, that's like a true artist friendship. You know, it's like, it's. And it's very authentic. It doesn't feel sort of a quid pro quo situation. Like, it's. It's very much like, I want to help. Like, it's like, thank you so much. What can I help you with? Like, let's. I'm excited to help you. [01:05:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I love reading other people's scripts. That's why, like, I love being in a writer's room because, like, yeah. Oh, my God. We can sit here all day and just, like, talk about this story and I can, like, punch up your script and you can punch up my script. That sounds like the best thing ever. And so when I'm doing that for a friend, it doesn't feel like I'm, like, doing them a favor or vice versa, you know, it's amazing. Yeah. [01:05:26] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much, Anka. [01:05:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:28] Speaker B: This has been really insightful. [01:05:30] Speaker A: Thank you guys for having me. This is really cool. [01:05:32] Speaker B: Very inspiring. But the dream in your own hands, you know, and chase it and, like, really do it. And it's like, if you've been thinking about it, just do it. [01:05:39] Speaker A: Yeah. You don't have to wait for permission from anyone. You can just. [01:05:43] Speaker C: It's such a. I love the position you're in as, like, a writer forward person in animation too. Like, it just I feel like we've talked to so many animators who are so, you know, visually creative, but I don't think we've honed in on the writing as much as, as, you know, I've always wanted to, being a writer myself, so it's. It's awesome to, to hear from you and. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on. Yeah. [01:06:06] Speaker A: Thank you guys so much for having me. This was, this was so fun and can't wait to see what you guys talk about after this. You always have, like, some weird. I've listened to a couple episodes. I love the one, like a really long history bit. Make this a good one. Okay. Promise you'll make it a good one. [01:06:22] Speaker B: All right. [01:06:23] Speaker C: All right. All right. There we go. We'll try. [01:06:26] Speaker A: We'll do our best. [01:06:26] Speaker B: Thank you, Wonka. I want to go on a quick cruise soon. We got to figure that out. [01:06:30] Speaker A: I know. [01:06:30] Speaker C: Yeah. If you can hook us up with Carnival, that would be a deal. [01:06:33] Speaker A: Yeah, my dad will get you a discount. Don't worry. Let's go. [01:06:35] Speaker C: Does he still work for Carnival? Is he still working? [01:06:37] Speaker A: He sure does. [01:06:43] Speaker C: And now it's 50. 50 after hours, So people are, so. People are like looking forward to this shtick at the end now. [01:06:55] Speaker B: I. I hope not. [01:06:56] Speaker C: Is that, Is that what's going on? [01:06:58] Speaker B: I mean, I, I don't. I'm. I'm surprised people listen this long, you know? [01:07:03] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, what are you doing here? [01:07:04] Speaker B: What do you. [01:07:05] Speaker C: I guess you get. If you're really good and you listen to the whole episode, you get kind of like a 10 minute treat at the end. [01:07:10] Speaker B: It's true. That's true. [01:07:12] Speaker C: I mean, everybody's awesome. [01:07:13] Speaker B: I. Yeah, that, that story at the beginning about her parents. [01:07:17] Speaker C: Crazy. [01:07:18] Speaker B: Crazy. [01:07:18] Speaker C: Have you been on a cruise ever? [01:07:20] Speaker B: I went on a cruise to Alaska. [01:07:23] Speaker C: That's a. Yeah, that's a classic cruise right there. [01:07:27] Speaker B: It was incredible. We had ice water and they use glacier ice for that, which is insane. I had the best salmon of my entire life. [01:07:36] Speaker C: This is all on the ship. [01:07:37] Speaker B: We weren't on the ship during this. [01:07:39] Speaker C: Where are you looking right now? Why are you looking up there? [01:07:43] Speaker B: I was looking at a tree. Yeah. [01:07:47] Speaker C: Can you just look at me when you talk? [01:07:49] Speaker B: Sorry. It's hard. It's hard to look at you when I talk. I get. I get distracted. I want to say stuff. Have you been on a cruise? I'm just gonna keep going. [01:08:00] Speaker C: No, I've never. [01:08:00] Speaker B: That's not a fake story. [01:08:01] Speaker C: We were eating. [01:08:02] Speaker B: We were eating salmon. [01:08:03] Speaker C: I mean, Alaskan salmon is like the Biggest delicacy. [01:08:06] Speaker B: Dude, it was. It was the best salmon I've ever had. There was a student was like barbecuing salmon outside, whatever. And he comes in. It was like we were like the only people in this restaurant. It's kind of like a diner vibe, but it's in the middle of nowhere, Alaska. They're like glaciers. All around is this little grass patch. And I'm not kidding, through the window we see the barbecue with the steam coming out, whatever. And a bear comes up, full on bear. And the dude just goes out and like chews it away. And we're all just like, this is. [01:08:36] Speaker C: This happens every day for this guy. [01:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:39] Speaker C: You guys are all freaking out in the restaurant. Locking the doors. Yeah. [01:08:43] Speaker B: Now he's just like, go away. [01:08:45] Speaker C: It was your whole family. [01:08:47] Speaker B: No, just I think me couple siblings and my mom. My dad doesn't do cruises. [01:08:54] Speaker C: I don't do cruises, man. I get majorly seasick. [01:08:58] Speaker B: Really? [01:08:59] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I've never been on one, but I could only assume. You just think, I mean, I go on a little. A little fishing boat and I'm seasick. I've had this issue recently. I'm getting so carsick that I'm driving and I'm getting carsick. [01:09:13] Speaker B: Really? [01:09:13] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like really, really bad. [01:09:15] Speaker B: You're on your phone the whole time. [01:09:17] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I go on my phone and I'm a couple drinks in at that point. [01:09:21] Speaker B: So I just like, oh, dude, you can't do that. You really can't do that. [01:09:27] Speaker C: There's a great Please don't destroy sketch where I think it's the opening. And Ben goes, don't you sometimes just want to, like, have a few drinks and take a long drive? It's just like such a great intro to a sketch. [01:09:40] Speaker B: It's great. Super, super inspiring, for sure. [01:09:43] Speaker C: Yeah, she's awesome. And as I said before, like, it's so refreshing to have someone like, such a writer brain in animation, you know? Yeah, she's. She's like the real deal as far as anyone, Anyone. [01:09:55] Speaker B: Structure, though. [01:09:56] Speaker C: Structure. [01:09:57] Speaker B: But she's such a, like, she, she gets it of like, yeah, oh, I want to do this. I'm. I'm just going to do it. [01:10:03] Speaker C: Yeah. And she was, she was like. So she was keeping us on track as far as, like, the structure of her story. [01:10:09] Speaker B: She was. [01:10:10] Speaker C: You asked a question. She goes, well, that's. That's a little bit. That's a little bit in the future. I'll get to that. [01:10:15] Speaker B: Okay. [01:10:16] Speaker C: There we go. [01:10:17] Speaker B: It was awesome. [01:10:18] Speaker C: He's doing our job for us. [01:10:19] Speaker B: Great guest. It's like she's done this a million times. [01:10:22] Speaker C: I know. [01:10:24] Speaker B: I don't. What are you looking at, dude? [01:10:27] Speaker C: No, I'm just looking at you. It's different. It's different because the camera's actually in a different place than your face. So I'm actually just looking at your face. [01:10:33] Speaker B: Okay. Right. [01:10:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:42] Speaker B: Did you learn something? I'm like your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050Fest on Instagram and give us five stars, because. Why not? Why not subscribe? Why not? You know why not. Okay, bye.