HOW TO: Provoke, Produce, Perfect (w/ Gabriella Mykal)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I'm really only interested in films that are gonna grapple with the premise that like, of course I'm telling you a story. Yeah, so like, like the prototypical documentary style where it's like there's a kind of dictation that assumes like a certain, like, I don't know, like, like purity of the authorship or something. Like if anything, I think it's, I think it's more interesting as a maker and as a watcher to make something that challenges the viewer every step of the way to like hold what I'm saying and remember that like, this is something that I have like devised that I am saying universal truth necessary. It is not universal truth. Like, this is all bias. [00:00:38] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld. [00:00:39] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian. [00:00:41] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey. [00:00:44] Speaker C: 50% business, 50% creative. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new how to. [00:00:48] Speaker C: This week we talk with Gabriela Michael. The Tiff and Blacklist, selected filmmaker and visual artist came to our Silverlake studio with a fight and fervor that seem ripple through the whole east side of la. We left our conversation with Gabriela feeling truly inspired, having dug deep into her creative motivation, the question she asks through her art and her astounding level of discipline. At the same time, Gabriela generously shared with us the cold hard lessons she's learned through working with high level producers in writers rooms, edit bays and beyond. This is one of those 50, 50 all timers guys. [00:01:26] Speaker A: So enjoy. I think. Well, I guess like Taylor Sheridan shoots a lot of things in. [00:01:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:38] Speaker A: In and around Dallas now. So I think it's like he's kind of like everything. He's brought like TV to Texas basically. [00:01:47] Speaker C: Yeah, that's huge. [00:01:48] Speaker B: When did you move out here? [00:01:49] Speaker A: I moved here 2020 in August. [00:01:53] Speaker B: And you went to CalArts, right? [00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I moved to go to CalArts. Like the best time to move in human history. Yeah, I moved, I moved to go to CalArts and it was kind of like the excuse to. I've been like waiting for like the right time to leave and I, at first I'd wanted to go away for undergrad and then just kind of had to make like a strategic decision for my future of like if I like went to. I went to SMU for my undergrad and it was like, well, I got so many scholarships that like I didn't have to take any loans or anything. And so then I was like, well that sets me up well that like then I could take on the financial burden of going to Grad school if I needed to take loans or whatever, which I didn't end up having to do that either. But, yeah, it all kind of worked out. I also think, like, we, like, do things in the time that it, like, comes correctly. And so I think, like, I didn't love going to smu, but it also was like, like, that format appeared for me as, like, an artist that then led me to deciding to go to CalArts. I feel like, the right time to, like, make a big move and be able to, like, like, leave and stay gone. [00:02:55] Speaker B: What was the. The focus at CalArts? Was it straight up film school? [00:03:00] Speaker A: It's more like CalArts is, like, such an art school. And that, like, one of the things that drew me to it. I remember, like, when I was interviewing at grad schools, it was either, like, you wanted to do, like, experimental filmmaking, and then you could go into, like, a moving image program at Columbia, but then they would be like, why are you citing filmmakers as your references? Or you could go to, like, film school, like, USC film school. What I liked about CalArts was that it really is more just like, if the work is good, the work is good, but what is it is, like, up to you. So they were very open to the fact that, like, I came in having this practice of only ever making, like, super, like. Like, experimental video art and installation work [00:03:39] Speaker B: at smu, or that was in high school. [00:03:40] Speaker A: That was, like, at SMU. And then going into CalArts, I was like, I want to learn how to screenwrite. I want to learn how to make movies that are more traditional. I want to learn how to work with a cre, to learn how to be collaborative. I don't want to just be, like. Like a bedroom filmmaker anymore. Yeah, but I. It's like. But I still have a love for that. So it's like, I want to, like, diverse my. Divide, diverse my. My skill set. And I felt like CalArts was the only place that they were, like, really excited to support that. And it was, like, there. And granted, like, it's not a perfect school. Like, no school is perfect. But I think it ended up being the right environment for me where I was able to continue to be, like, making, like, essay films and then also, like, writing my first scripts and, like, learning how to write, like, learning how to direct, like, taking, like, like, like, Acting for directors classes. And, like, like, it was like, I really got. I, like, widened the scope of my practice in a way that, like, set me up for success. Not necessarily in terms of, like, getting a job when I graduated, but certainly in terms of like the artist that I became, like, I owe that. [00:04:37] Speaker B: That's super important. [00:04:38] Speaker C: That feels very grad school to me [00:04:40] Speaker B: too, and film school and generally what it should be. [00:04:43] Speaker C: But like you have an experience of doing something pretty well, like the experimental stuff. And then you go in, you're like, okay, I want to. I have a specific goal going into this, you know. [00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah, 100% like just to. Yeah. Expand. Like. Yeah, it's like I came in making like four minute videos and then I left having made like a feature documentary. The granted is like pretty like. I think it's. You know what's funny is that like compared to like a standard, like prototypical doc, it's extremely experimental. But then like at CalArts I would get critiques that were like. I just worry that it's a little bit like straightforward and it's kind of like. It's like. It's kind of like boring formatively. And I'm just wondering if that's like what you're trying to do. And I'm like, well, I do want people to be able to like watch it. So. Yes, like, I was like, if. If it's because it has like, it's a documentary, it has like interviews and it has like talking heads and like people you sit and you listen like. [00:05:33] Speaker B: But they're like, less, less of that. Less, less of, please. Like. [00:05:37] Speaker A: Yeah, well, they were like. It's just not. There's just moments where you're just kind of like take. Taking it in and it's not very like confrontational or like, it's like. And I was like, yeah, the idea is that people could watch it and like know what's going on. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Were they, were they showing you guys? I mean, I guess the question is like, did they or to what degree did they handhold you through that process of like going from those like four minute shorts to like a feature length documentary? Were they kind of shoving, you know, you know, auteur, documentarian work into the curriculum or was it more of just like, again, like you said, it's very open and you can kind of just do whatever you want and focus on whatever you want. [00:06:14] Speaker A: I think it's very open, like it like in the way that every grad program is. It's like there were the classes you were required to take, which usually had to do with like basic fundamentals, especially early on. And then CalArts program is three years, which like was, I think is awesome because if it was two years, I feel like that flies by because like, especially given the pandemic the first year was just like getting my bearings and like kind of like sharpening up some like pretty practical skills of like learning more foundationally about like directing. Like a lot of classes is about like narrative and form and, and like stuff like that. But then like in terms of like hand holding, it's like certainly like the professors at CalArts. CalArts trend towards more like auteur specific experimental tastes. But most of them are like extremely receptive to the fact that like I found that like most of the student body was like, we were all like we're artists but like we want to make movies and we want to like we want to work towards. Exactly. And so like I remember, I mean at the time, like it was, it was very. I think that the expectation was that if you wanted to, you would be completely encouraged and supported to spend three years making like a seven minute film. That was the more expected thing. When I said I wanted to make a feature as my thesis like all of my professors and my thesis committee tried to convince me not to do it. They all were like, everyone. People who say they're gonna make a future never finish it. And I was like, well, you guys know that I'm psychotic, so I will finish it. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Watch. [00:07:40] Speaker A: There's no world in which I don't finish it. But they were just very concerned about which again I think is practical of like most. Yeah, it's like most people I think also I was kind of. I was like a collegiate athlete and I have a very like regimented, intense weight of approaching. [00:07:56] Speaker B: What did you play? [00:07:58] Speaker A: I rode crew in college. And like before that I was like a competitive golfer. So like I have this like way of being like, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. That's really. And so like. And I also like, I worked like almost full time all through grad school and so I would like go be at the office all day at like a production company. I was like a post production assistant and then would go do my night classes. And then one day I got them to agree to let me have one day a week where I would stack a bunch of classes that were like required that I had to like that I couldn't do at night because I would then work weekends. So it was like I was like grinding for like three years and I was making this film. [00:08:33] Speaker B: So a feature was like whatever. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Well, it was kind of. I mean it was, it was, I think it was that. So the film, it was. I think my thing was that one I didn't want to spend two years making like a 20 minute film. Because I was like, that feels like a waste of my time because I'm just like. I think some people, like, everyone's. The pace of their practice is different. For me, once I'm working on something, it's actually like pretty fast. Like, I'm not gonna, like, I don't take like a year to edit the short. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Like, it's like, like edit your own stuff as well. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's like, like I was like, I was like, if I'm gonna spend two years making a movie, it's. It's gonna be like 80 to 90 minutes long. Because two years of my life, like, I don't. I was like, I can make something that's. I've made things that are 20 minutes and it took me like a month or two. I don't need to spend that long. So like, when I kind of came up with the way to do was about like the workflow, which is that most of the film I like, shot and recorded by myself, which is like most of the interviews. And so I did that like on and off for like a year of just like where it was like I would do it on the weekend, I would do it on the evening, and I would be researching and I'd be [00:09:39] Speaker B: writing editing in between as well. Yeah. [00:09:41] Speaker A: And I edited as I go. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:43] Speaker A: And also the film is like, is. It's like a hybrid doc, so it has like reenactments and it has like a narrative sequence. Then it also has the interviews. And then the topic is that it's about fan fiction writing online amongst teen girls. And like, I. I saw a little bit about. Yeah, yeah. Like narrativization of like, traumatic sexual experiences. And so it also kind of is very fitting that it's a film about things that girls are making in their bedrooms. And I kind of made this film in my bedroom a little bit by myself. [00:10:08] Speaker B: But it's the, the reenactment piece of that. It sounds very unique. I don't think I've seen peers who've made dog like documentaries kind of lean into the reenactment side of things. Like, you see animation, you see, you know, certain, you know, experimental or more untraditional ways to go about doing something very traditional. But like, the reenactment, that's cool. [00:10:31] Speaker A: I mean, I will say I can't take credit for that. There's like a long history of like, meta cinema where like, you're watching movies like, like ghost hunting or like casting. Jonbenet that's like my favorite dog, like, changed my life in high school. Like, it's like films that, that like, I just like my thing. I think as like a, like a nonfiction filmmaker, I'm really only interested in films that are going to grapple with the premise that like, of course I'm telling you a story. [00:10:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:57] Speaker A: So like, like the prototypical documentary style where it's like there's a kind of dictation that assumes like a certain, like, I don't know, like, like purity of the authorship or something. Like, if anything, I think it's. I think it's more interesting as a maker and as a watcher to make something that challenges the viewer every step of the way to like, hold what I'm saying and remember that like, this is something that I have, like that you're saying, devised that I am saying universal truth. It is not universal truth. Like, this is all biased. And so again, this film being kind [00:11:27] Speaker C: of up, leaning into those more narrative elements is exactly. [00:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:31] Speaker C: Posing that question. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Because the film is also very much about like fantasy, about like memory, about imagination and the stories that we tell ourselves and like, who believes them and why. And so it was like all that kind of. That's all to say that it's like all of those components, I think were like thematically woven in, but then also had to do with like, how the film was made. Which is like when my professors were like, how are you planning on doing this? I was like, well, I'm gonna like, basically make it as I go. So it's like, as I shot, I was like also editing for two years. So by the time we finished shooting of like it also, because everything kind of wove into itself of like. It starts with like, I call it a reenactment, but it's not a reenactment because it's never been enacted. It's like an acted out scene of like a very famous One Direction fan fiction. Breaks into like a fake interview which breaks into a real interview which goes. [00:12:16] Speaker B: That would do really well online. I don't know if you chop those up and posted stuff, but that sounds like a very interesting. [00:12:22] Speaker A: Like that that movie's been seen by like a select few audiences where it's screened. And then I've kind of been like, I'll fight. I'll find a real home for it at some point. I've just been busy. Kind of like, also. Because again, it's just so funny that it's like I made this film while I was like working Full time. I was finishing school. And then, yeah, I, like, it's like I got laid off from that job at the production company. Got a different job with a producer. Like, randomly fell into my lap, like, within the week. So then I started working for her. Worked for her for, like, a year. So it was like, making the film was a kind of, like, it was. It was simultaneously the thing that my whole life was centered around, and it also was not the main thing happening. So even finding, like, I now, like, the film, I think I finished it, like, 20, 23, and then it finished screening last year. And now finally, I'm like, oh, yeah, I should, like, find somewhere for it to, like, live. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:07] Speaker A: So that more people can see it. [00:13:08] Speaker C: Yeah, [00:13:11] Speaker B: absolutely. How. How was it screening? Like, how did that feel? [00:13:15] Speaker A: It was. It was awesome. It's a really special film. It's like, again, the subject matter is. I think. I think the film is. Is quite, like, humorous and hilarious and heartfelt, but it also is, like, quite intense and. And, like. And I'm in, like, half of it of, like, I do an interview and then I, like, play myself in the final reenactment. And, like. So it also is a film that, like, I think it's very. It's very touching, and it came from, like, a deeply sincere place. And it's been super special to have a few opportunities to screen it where especially, like, its international premieres. That was that TIFF Next Wave last year, which is, like, TIFF has, like, a subset that's specifically for, like, like, young adult audiences and, like, younger filmmakers. [00:13:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:55] Speaker A: And that was, like, really, really special [00:13:58] Speaker C: to have, like, connect with. [00:13:59] Speaker A: Yeah, like, it's like, to be, like, meeting all these, like, groups of girls after that were, like, in their eyes. Like, I've never seen anyone talk about how this feels. And it's also cool because, like. Like, I made this film when I was, like, in my, like, like, kind of in my mid. Like, early mid-20s about what it was like when I was a teenager. And I was kind of basing the, like, when I first was thinking about making it, the inspiration was very much that I was like, well, I feel like this is something that's coming up for me. And when I. Every time I talk to, like, any other woman, they're like, no, totally. I relate to that. But then you never know if it's like, well, we could be talking about something that was so singular to, like, when we were growing up, super online in these spaces particularly. And so it's kind of incredible to, like, 10 years later, like, meet these teenage girls who are like, they're doing the same thing in like, spaces that weren't even invented yet, right? That like, it's like that I'm not on because now I'm like a grown woman. [00:14:51] Speaker C: Psychological thing. [00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah. But it's the same experience. And I think that especially as like a maker of anything is like the most incredible vote of confidence to be like. So there was something actually, like, if anything, the film has grown more relevant with time. When my initial worry was like, it might be that, like, no one will know what the fuck I'm talking about. And then it turns out that it's like, no, like the film. Like, the more. It's like the more time that passes is the more that it is speaking to something very pressing. Which is cool. [00:15:17] Speaker C: I know we have a lot to get to in this interview, but I do want to harp on this a little bit more because I'm personally just fascinated by such like, sort of intellectual psychological topic. I'm curious. This question isn't fully formatted, but I'm curious, like, did you have a thesis going into the documentary and were you like, like, did you have a pitch for it that you were like? I think that, you know, the rise in fan fiction or blah, blah, blah is, you know, directly correlates to, you know, women's, you know, traumatic experiences. Or was it through this documentary I'm gonna find out if there is a correlation? Do you know what I mean? [00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that I definitely had a thesis. The kind of thesis point of the film going into it was that I had grown up in these spaces. All my best friends had come up in these spaces. This was like how we kind of like. Like these were like actually like our more most like, tangible, like early context of sex. Especially because, like growing up in Texas where like sex education is like, it's literally legal for them to like lie to you at school. So like, it was just like absence based. And they would. It's like. So we were actually just like online learning from older girls what like sex was like supposed to be like. Or whatever. And then you like get into your adulthood, things happen to you, and you're like, whoa, that's like not what I was told I was gonna feel like or whatever. And so I just ended up being like. I was like, I know that we kind of lauded like, like, like it's like whether it's like erotic fiction or like fan fiction as these like female forward texts that are so much better than porn because they're not misogynistic or whatever, but I'm like. I'm seeing the same, like, themes and, like. Like, misguidance is coming up, except that there's, like, something almost even more pervasive about it. Because, like, it's not just like watching a video that gives you an image. It's like you're indulging in, like, the inner psychology of, like, imagining yourself to be in a certain kind of position that then, like, trains you to expect a certain response from yourself or something. And so the thesis of the film just ended up being like, okay, like. But then I keep coming back to being like, but it's not real. Like, if it's all fantasy, like, what it's like, what is the. How could it be dangerous if it's not real? And then I was like, but I. I think it still could be. And so that question is kind of what. What I entered into the film with. Of like, that I was like, I don't know that there's, like, an answer to that question. I'm just kind of fantasy. I'm just kind of fascinated. Like, it's so funny because again, I'm like, I used to have this so down pack, but I haven't talked about the film in so long. It's like I'm. There's like. It's distilled, like, into, like, one line in the film that's like. Basically, the distillation of the thesis of the film was like. Was like, what is the harm if it's all. If it's all fantasy? And then again, like, I was in this moment, especially in school, where, like, I was really interested in this history of, like, this, like, William Greaves meta cinema kind of imagination. Of, like, in a way, like, reenactment and, like, fantasy. Like, indulgent in terms of indulgence in terms of like. But it's like, it even felt very formal. I love things that are, like, formally interwoven, like, modern in that way of like. That. It's like, okay, like, the form should follow the function. So, like, the approach to the film, Like, I was like. I love that there's this aspect of like. It's inherent to performance. Because you're talking about performance and relationship. Performance in terms of, like, sexuality and then also performance in terms of, like, an actor in the film. As we are, like, making this film the most better. No, literally, where it's like, so all of it is, like, so intertwined. I'm like, okay, so, like, I thought there was something. So there was. There was something so Good there about this idea that it's like. Well, actually, in the same way that, like, it's like when you're putting on a performance as an actor and you, like, take yourself somewhere and you internalize something from that. And then it's like, okay, it's this, like, Judith Butler thing of, like, we're all performing ourselves all the time. Like, that is interwoven into why these things actually sink so deep. And that gets into, like. That's the same as, like. Like EMDR yourself in a sign. So at the end of the day, like, kind of the film begins raising this question of, like, are these fantasies really, like, harmless and they leave no trace because it's not real. No, clearly they leave a trace. But then it's. So it's not that we shouldn't be indulging that. Like, we have to be indulging consciously. And you could also use the same mechanism to pull yourself out of something that it kind of, like, sucked you into. That's like where we. You kind of arrive at the end where, like, I. Again, I call them reenactments. But it's like the two. Like, that's. Because that's kind of the term you use in, like, a hybrid film like this. But the two reenactments are actually not reenactments because the first one performances is, like. Is a performance of something written that, like, never happened but was, like, an imagination. And the last. Yeah, right. But then the last reenactment is actually, like, a scene based off of, like, something real that happened in my life. And then. Which you talk. We talk about in my interview being like, well, I wonder if this had gone differently, what would that have looked like? And then we, like, do the scene. [00:20:20] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:20] Speaker B: So, like, as in reality verse, what could have been or something. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Where it's like, you just sort of see then, like. Because again, the tech, the visual language of the film is very, like. It's just like, shot on DSLRs. Like, us sitting in our bedrooms doing recordings of these interviews. And then when you get into this final reenactment, it fully looks like it's shot with cinema lenses. You're fully immersed in this imagination of. Oh, so this thing that we were just describing. I wonder if that had gone differently. And now we're doing it and it's like, so, yeah, the film is all. It's all very formal in that way. But I really can't take credit for those inventions. Like, I didn't make them up. [00:20:58] Speaker B: But you can take. [00:20:59] Speaker C: You took ownership of that. [00:21:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I just love, I love a hybrid film and I love, I love making. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Yeah, this is like a, this is not like a, like a safe bet. This is like. You really like. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah, especially because like even like the film is called Rape Play. Like it's very confrontational. Like it's like, why play? Well, for one thing, the context of the, of the subject matter of this idea of like, of imagining or like role playing and like this relationship to sexual violence. So it's like that is what like Rape Play is literally called. Or like CNC isn't like consensual non consent. But then I also loved that it kind of puts it in conversation with something like, like, like Race Play by Jeremy O. Harris had come out like a year or two prior. So it's like. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah, like Slave Play. [00:21:45] Speaker C: I was reminded of that. [00:21:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like Slave Play had come out a year or two before by [00:21:50] Speaker C: that word play in there is probably intentional. [00:21:53] Speaker A: Exactly. And it was like. So it's also. And I like that there's like, it's like I, I liked that the title was confrontational. I liked that it's like literally giving you the, it's giving you the words to like to put to what the film is like trying to talk about and like, and I like that it put it in conversation with works that had come before that. It's like obviously recently. Yeah, very recently that it's like doing something in conversation with that. [00:22:19] Speaker C: Cool. [00:22:19] Speaker A: So that was the idea. [00:22:20] Speaker B: So then. [00:22:21] Speaker A: Sorry, first of all. [00:22:22] Speaker B: No, it's, it's like first of all, congratulations on completing. [00:22:28] Speaker C: We like digging into that sort of thing because it's like I feel the passion there. We'll be right back. [00:22:39] Speaker B: I want to play like a scary song from like a horror movie before this, but all the copyright stuff, so I can't but imagine there's like a scary song playing right now and it's like, oh, the 5050 horror festival is coming. You need to submit your short film soon by August 7th. August 7th is the deadline. You have two months to submit your short film. You have two months and then after that there's another deadline. Read it here first. Submit now. Submit now if you dare now. But for real. Yeah. Have our horror festival coming up in October. October 18th is the actual day. Get your short in by August 7th if you want to be a part of it. We look forward to viewing your submission on film freeway 5050 horror. Those are the numbers. 505 0. Horror and doc like documentaries are so cool because you can lead with a question, and, like, not all the time are you meant to, like, find an answer. It's more of, like, the documentary can kind of be exploring the question, you know, and it sounds like you just had, like, such an incredible experience. Like, what a cool way to kind of implement all the skills you have learned or had learned at school and coming up before that and, like, having a project to be able to, like, fully immerse yourself into from every aspect. You know, like, acting, editing, directing idea. Like, all of it. Yeah. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Because that film was, like. It was kind of. It was so, like, learning as I went of. Like, like, I bought my. I bought my first. I saved up and bought a black magic pocket cam to shoot those interviews, and I bought my loves and I taught myself how to use them and I. To shoot that film. It was like, so every. Like, it kind of felt like by the end of the film, I would be like, oh, there's certain things that I wish I could, like, go back and redo because even the year later, [00:24:35] Speaker C: you're a better filmmaker. [00:24:36] Speaker A: I was so much better. But it's like, I think that's why I have such a fondness for that project, because it was like, how I. It was where I learned. Like, I learned so much. Like, I learned so much that by the end of it, I was like, wow. Like, I really have kind of come up through this. But. But it's also so funny because, again, it's like, I was. While I was making that doc, I also, like, I, like, wrote my first two scripts in school. Like, I, like, there were, like, other things that were happening. [00:24:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:59] Speaker A: Like, I, like, wrote the short that then we, like, made the next year. So it's like. It. But yeah, it's like that. Yeah. That. That film was really, like, formative for me, making it and getting to kind of follow it through of. Yeah. Having. Being really lucky to have experiences of getting to see people watch it and resonate with it. [00:25:15] Speaker B: And after that experience, or even in that experience, did you come out with, like, a. Oh, like, directing. I, like. I want to do this. Or, like, I love acting or, like, I love the writing piece or is it really just. I love it all, and I want to be great at it all. [00:25:33] Speaker A: I love it all. I think, like, I increasingly know that I have. I have to start being willing to, like, not edit everything myself because I don't think it's totally sustained. I think the next. If I made another essay film like, that, I would edit it myself because I think that that Feels kind of foundational. [00:25:49] Speaker B: But when you say essay film, what are you referring to? [00:25:55] Speaker A: I'm talking about like, if you've ever seen like, like, like early, like Chantel Aukerman, like kind of like experimental films where it's oftentimes like, it's kind of like a subset of non fiction that usually has to do with like exploration of topic. It's very like personal filmmaking. [00:26:12] Speaker B: Is there like a narration? Like, it's very. [00:26:14] Speaker A: It can be. Usually there's like a N aspect, but it can also be. It can be like text on screen. It can be that there's like no words at all. Those are a little bit more abstract. Yeah, but yeah, I think like, it's like if I'm. If I was making something that was more personal in that way, I would edit it myself. But I think especially because then the like, I made in my first like sort of real narrative short, the year after making that doc and that one, I like co. I like co edited with my producer Isabelle, partially just because I was like, oh my God. I'm realizing that like, editing is kind of the one thing that makes me like shoot myself with a gun for real. Like, I get so. But it's not even like, when I'm the one sat in the chair in front of the desktop, I'm like, God, if you're there, please help me. But if I can sit like next to the person in the chair at the desktop, then all of a sudden I'm like, this is fun, guys. [00:27:03] Speaker C: Like, we're figuring out what are you. [00:27:05] Speaker B: But I. I also am like, when there's someone in the chair next to you and you're like, wait, but like, go. Go two frames over and actually cut there instead of that. And it's like, you're so. At least for me, I want to [00:27:16] Speaker C: be in the chair. [00:27:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm just. But I. I feel almost bad. I'm like, oh my God. Like, I'm like, I find that. [00:27:20] Speaker A: So when I'm sat. When I'm sat next to the editor in the chair, all of a sudden I'm like, whatever you want to do. Like, I actually become way less opinion. I think it's like when I'm trying to do it by myself, I get kind of stalled in the choice as opposed to like, because I'm really good at. Like, if you say like, do you want this or that? I can be like, this, that, this, this. But like, when it's me by myself, I found it harder. So even like, like that short, I also was like, In a moment of my life, there's a. [00:27:44] Speaker B: There's an audience there. Right? Like, watching your film with any audience, you're seeing it with fresh eyes. [00:27:49] Speaker A: Totally. So it was like. Like, it was like Belle did, like, the first pass of it because I was like. I literally was like, I need your help. I, like, can I get myself to do this? So she did the. And even by her doing the first pass, then I was like, oh, now having something to respond to, I can be like, love what you did here. Yeah, I think this should be different. This should be different. Love what you did. [00:28:06] Speaker B: It's cool. It's like you're giving notes on your own project. [00:28:08] Speaker A: Ex. Kind of like a way to, like. Like, reverse engineer, like, not being so in it, especially. Oh, you know, what I did learn off of RP was that, like, I loved even, like. Like, I do think, like, being in my own projects is a lot of fun. Like, I think acting is, like. Is so fun and inherently, like, so playful. But, like, editing yourself is, like, truly, like. Like, like, obliterate me from the earth. It's so impossible. So that was something that I was like, I'll never. [00:28:35] Speaker B: You can't. You can't really see the character yourself, [00:28:40] Speaker A: especially because it was like, a scene where I'm like. [00:28:42] Speaker B: It's like, that's me. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I, like, deliver this monologue, and I'm, like, sobbing, and, like, all I can do is just be like, this sounds stupid and my bangs look horrible. Like, I was like. I literally had to, like, ask friends to come in and be like, can you guys, like, actually help me do this? Because I've lost all context. [00:28:54] Speaker B: That is interesting. Well, we've never spoken about that. Yeah, we've had a bunch of, you know, writer, actor, directors that are on here, but we've never spoken about the actual post process of, like, editing yourself. [00:29:05] Speaker A: Oh, my God. I don't know how other. I don't know how other people do it. I found it to be like, my solution was that I'll just literally never do it again. Like, like, the next time that I'm in something, I'm like. And I can't be the one to edit it, obviously. [00:29:17] Speaker C: Famous last words. [00:29:20] Speaker B: I mean, with. With the editing thing, too. But if, like, Belle, you meant is the editor. [00:29:26] Speaker A: Yeah, Isabelle. [00:29:27] Speaker B: Isabelle. [00:29:27] Speaker A: She's like, a producer. She's like my, like, best friend. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Okay. Right. Like, you guys are on the same page. So I assume there's that trust there where you're able to say, do your thing, Isabelle. Like, I trust you. Yeah, we have the same vision. Whatever. That's difficult to find. [00:29:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:46] Speaker B: You know, and for a long time it's kind of like, well, maybe I should just edit this myself, you know, because then I'm not like, whoa. You know. But ideally one day I meet. Meet someone that like totally gets it, like editing wise. And it's like, oh my God, like, yeah, and I'm gonna go take a vacation. Like, obviously I remember, I'm gone. I'll be back in three months. [00:30:08] Speaker A: CalArts, they used to. That we would have like visiting lectures that you could do workshops with. And this great video artist named Khalil Joseph, who he actually made a. He. He made a doc a year or two ago. That's also. But he came and did a workshop and I asked him. I was like, how did you get past the roadblock of like. Because we were talking a lot about how many of us have this experience of being like, I feel like I'm such a control freak that I was kind of. Especially back then I used to be like, well, why ask someone else to do it if I know they're not going to do it as well as I could or how I want it? I'd rather just be overwhelmed and just do it all myself. And I asked him like, I was like, how did you work through that? And he was like, like a part of it is just that you like get to a place where you like, you have to wait until you like meet someone that you are gen. You genuinely know and believe in your heart and are sure that of course they can do it better than you can. So you're like excited to see what they will do to improve on the thing that you asked them to do? Yes. And I think that I found that of like, like a sigh of relief. Yes. Like, if anything I'm like, then collaborating becomes so joyous because I'm like, oh my God, I can't wait to see how you iterate on the, on the first idea I had because your idea is going to be better. And I found that in like, like the DP that I love to work with my friend Paige, like my sound designer Dahi. Like I. That I found that in like everyone that I've managed to kind of build out of like, okay, now, like when I need this, I know who I want to go to. Except that I don't have. I don't have. I know, I don't know an editor that I feel that way with. And now I'm like writing the thing that I want to make is like my first narrative feature next year is like a micro budget moment. And I'm like, I have no idea who I would ask to edit this. Like, I truly don't know. [00:31:45] Speaker B: I, I don't think you'll have a hard time finding that simply because I think to receive all of that, there's in the way of, like, you have a DP that really gets you and you have your producers and this and your team. Like, I think that can only come from a sturdy foundation. [00:32:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:03] Speaker B: As in, like, you've found your voice or like, have a enough of an understanding of it and what you want to make and what you want to say with your work. But then also like on the output front, like, you have this feature length doc, you've done a bunch of shorts, you've done these essay films. Like, you've done a lot. [00:32:20] Speaker A: I mean, I've only made the one narrative short, actually. [00:32:23] Speaker B: Okay. But like, there's stuff out like that's something that like people can look at and say, totally. And you can even be like, yeah, I, I found all I'm getting is like, the foundation is there. And without that, I think it'd be very difficult to tap certain people to be on your team. And of course you're gonna be sitting there like, why don't you get it? It's because you don't either. You know, like, internally, it's like there's a disconnect of like, well, I' yet. So how could I think you're gonna love this too if I'm not even sure about it? [00:32:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's real. [00:32:50] Speaker C: So I'm curious if we can switch gears a little bit too, because you're in a room right now. You're in a writer's room. [00:32:57] Speaker B: You are. [00:32:58] Speaker C: I, I want to talk about, I [00:33:00] Speaker B: want to talk about the, the micro budget feature, but we'll do that after. [00:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we can talk about whatever. [00:33:04] Speaker C: Take it one bite. [00:33:05] Speaker A: You. [00:33:06] Speaker C: You, you know, you had mentioned you were working a production company as you, you know, there was one. Now there was another one. Like, what, what is your relationship with like the sort of business side of the industry. Yeah. And the day job. Because it's obviously vital, like totally doing all of that. So I'm curious what that looks like kind of leading up into where you are right now. [00:33:26] Speaker A: I think, like, to contextualize it. So, like when I was an undergrad, I got a financial economics degree and I got a studio art degree. And it was like, partially because I, for one, I wanted to have like a practical Degree. I also just think it makes you, like, a more well rounded person. [00:33:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:40] Speaker A: And like, backup plan. Then went to grad school and spent my first year, like. And this was also. This is so, like, pandemic. Like brain worms, mental illness. I would like stay up all night applying to jobs. I would find, like, anything, like, indeed LinkedIn, like, like YouTube video editor, getting paid like 20 bucks a video, anything. Because I was like, I need to like, build my resume. I need to build my resume. So I kind of hobbled together a bunch of gigs of like, I was like editing. Like, I had like a side gig where I would edit Nicole Scherzinger's Instagram videos for her. I was editing like YouTube pop culture videos just like, anything to kind of like stat, like, just to prove that I could like have a job. And then I like lucked into this job as a post production assistant at the company that used to make Naked and Afraid. It was called Renegade 83. I don't even know if it exists anymore. I worked there for like a year and a half. It was like, really interesting. And it also was cool because at the time I used to be like, I was still in that moment where I was too shy to admit that, like, really, like, I want to be a filmmaker. Like, I want to be a writer, director, making my own film. So, like, when people would be like, what do you want to do? I'd be like, I think, like, I'd be cool. It'd be cool to go into like the exact route because, like, I. It's like, I'm like, really good at giving notes. [00:34:49] Speaker C: And then I also, like, what do [00:34:51] Speaker A: you want to do? [00:34:51] Speaker C: I want to be here and move my way. [00:34:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I was too shy. I couldn't admit it. I was too embarrassed, honestly, until I finally, the breakthrough eventually was like, well, you'll never become the thing you want to be if you can't even say it out loud. So you have to get there. But at the time, I wasn't there yet. So I used to be like, well, I'd be interested in being an exec. And also like, I love, like, I'm like, I'm a huge love island, Stan. Like, I've been watching every summer since I was like 19. So I was like, oh. Like, I'm fascinated by like, post production workflows on reality television. I like, met this like, older man at a bar who was hitting on me. I say that to him and he was like, that's crazy. I'm a producer at a production company that makes Reality shows. And I was like, oh well, like, here's my email. Like, I want a job. [00:35:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:28] Speaker A: And then he like got me a job. It's crazy. So he gave, he got me this job and I worked there for like a year and a half. I learned a lot. And what I learned was that I actually don't want to work in posts on reality tv. But again, learned a lot. It was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was. [00:35:43] Speaker C: We talked with people recently who have worked on reality tv. I, I just came off of coffee with this guy who like had worked a very similar role to yours and yeah, talked. So many people get their start because they employ. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Because these workflows are massive. Like it was like, it's hours of like Naked and Freight. They have like hundreds of cameras running 24 hours. [00:36:04] Speaker C: There was also something. And this could totally not be your situation, but there was something about. During the writers strike, a lot of people went to reality TV because there's [00:36:13] Speaker A: writing, that's where you can still work. Like again my. So after I got, I got laid off from this job because they got acquired by a company that kind of like took one look at what they were doing and they were like, why do you have like so many PAs? Like, and I like, so we all got fired. And then I was like, you know what? This is a gift. Like I've been stressed about trying to finish my thesis and working and I still have a job. [00:36:33] Speaker B: It's not your dream job. [00:36:33] Speaker C: Whatever. [00:36:34] Speaker A: Was my dream job. All live. I'll go on unemployment. [00:36:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:36] Speaker A: Like, it's like saw like a job listing in a newsletter for this producer that also had like a nonprofit and a casting company and she was like looking for a part time assistant to eventually go full time. Sent one email, had that job within literally a week and a half. Like crazy. She just like hired me really fast because her, the, her current assistant was leaving. I worked for. Her name was Tiffany Persons. At the time she was so she was like a documentarian, mostly did non fiction stuff, but then was also producing Zoe Kravitz's first feature, Blink Twice. [00:37:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:05] Speaker A: So like, like kind of like running [00:37:08] Speaker B: cool project to be on, like running [00:37:09] Speaker A: her life and like watching her kind of move through the like it's like the reshoots and then the post process on that. Like it was like I only, I only worked there for like, I only worked for her for like a year. And I learned so much so quickly and then got laid off from that job. Like top of 2024. I did this like thing called the CalArts, like post grad fellowship where like you can apply with an idea for a class and they pick like one or two to teach for the semester. And my class got picked. So then I like taught my class for the semester which was again like super fun. [00:37:41] Speaker C: What was the class? [00:37:42] Speaker A: It was called Hot sad white guys, Race and sexuality and filmic desire. And it was, you said, that's so [00:37:48] Speaker B: sad looking at us. [00:37:48] Speaker A: It's because it's kind of like wow. Because it's, it's so silly. But I adore it. I had so much fun. It's about the sub genre movies that I. [00:37:55] Speaker C: That was the, that was the sad life guy, actually. [00:37:58] Speaker A: Oh yeah. It should have been Hot side white guys. Yeah, it was about like we would watch like beautifully and beach rats and call me by your name, but also like Top Gun and Captain America Winter Soldier. And I was just like, we would kind of. I was really fascinated and like I was like, I think especially when you come up in art school, any intersection at your identity, there's kind of this like it's a. Whether it's like an overt pressure or an expectation that you make work. Like coming from your, from your perspective. [00:38:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:23] Speaker A: But then I was like, well, even if I make something about like some like white CIS guy, that's still coming from my perspective. So like why I was like, I'm interested in like all these movies by like women filmmakers or queer filmmakers that are about like, it's like like CIS male experiences or like straight guys that I'm like, why am I like. But I still am. Like, I'm so him for real. Like, so it was a lot of fun. Like I think it's like, it's like humorous, but it also, I think a part of it too was like what I found in CalArts that I was searching for is a little bit more of like I want to take like it's like the high to low. Like I want to be like, why can't we be deciphering? Like why can't I be talking about Captain America Winter Soldier in the same class that I'm talking about? But try because they're actually kind of the same movie. So like, let's have that conversation. [00:39:08] Speaker B: An awesome class. [00:39:09] Speaker A: It was so much fun. And it was also cool of like to like open it up to the whole institute and there was like a wait list because people were like, these are the things we want to see. So that was really fun. I did that for a semester and then just like didn't have a Day job was like kind of like interviewing. Nothing was happening. And then like I remember the week that the class ended, I went to Atlanta for the premiere of the doc, got back and then was like, fuck, I like really need to find a job. And then I got this job at Shondaland and I worked there for like two years. I was like the office manager basically. But it was also cool because that was like a very diverse experience of like, I would like help the digital media team with videos sometimes and like I would, I was on weekend reads, so I got to like give notes and like I had like a really good relationship with the execs, which like has continued now even after I don't work there anymore. So it was like when, when were you working there? It was like summer 2024 to like I left like May this year. So it was almost like exactly quite [00:40:02] Speaker C: the time to be working there. [00:40:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it was. And again like just like a really, it was a really great learning experience. Like it wasn't, it wasn't perfect, but also like it was a job and I needed a job and it gave me structure. [00:40:14] Speaker C: And I'm sure you're learning and you're, you're seeing, you know, a specific environment and it seems like you being able to be in the digital and the weekend read and all that like that because you, you are a multifaceted person. You could like help. [00:40:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think it helps in these moments to be like so many. Every, in a way, every job that I've ever gotten is because like if you're sort of like a jack of all trades and you're just like, you're a competent person, like truly competent of like, you can learn something quickly and no matter what you do, you'll do it at least pretty well. Like that'll take you so far. If you're willing to be like whatever you need, I can show up and I can figure it out. And even again, like this showrunner's assistant position now, like when I interviewed and they were like, well, we're both very self sufficient, so it's not really that we need like an assistant who's like on desk. We just want someone that's there that like when things come up, they can handle it. And we want someone who's sharp. We want someone who can help us decipher the notes. We want someone who's in the room pitching. And I was like, I can do that. [00:41:07] Speaker C: Yes. [00:41:08] Speaker A: Like, I can promise you that I'm the kind of person, person that like, if you Ask me to do something, I will do it, and I will do it well. And I think being. Being able to do that and having the confidence to say that and know that it's true will, like, carry you farther than, like, anything that anyone can ever, like, teach you in school. And a little bit of it is just like. It's like the blind confidence that you're like, I'll figure it out. [00:41:26] Speaker C: I'm sure there were many people who interviewed for that job who were perfect and have written the exact correct sample for that kind of show and whatever, but you're like, you're you. And you're able to be like, yeah, I can do this. I can do this. I can do this. I know a little bit about a lot of things. [00:41:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially because this stuff is, like, this industry is so about fit. Like, it really is, like, it's hilarious to be like, yeah, you can be, like, the most qualified person in the world. And then it's like a vibe check. Like, it's just that I'm like. I'm like, well, yeah, of course. It's like, everyone else that they talk to is probably, like, incredibly accomplished, and they've. And they're doing their work, and, like, they probably have done, like. Like, I think I was the only one that they interviewed that had never even been. I've never even done support staff. Like, so if anything, I was like. Like, in the interview, I was like, I'm sure that's, like, a concern. And they were like, it's actually not a concern for us. Like, we don't want someone who's coming in with, like, a predetermined idea of what this job is supposed to look like, because we're kind of going to be, like, making it up. And I was like, well, what I can, like, I will be, like, a really easy person to make it up with as you totally. [00:42:24] Speaker B: So it is such a vibe, Jack. [00:42:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:27] Speaker C: Like, it's like, can this person hang? [00:42:29] Speaker A: Yeah. No. And again, you consider that so much of this work is that, like, you just have to be. Then I'm like, they have to talk to me like, all day, every day for, like, that makes a lot of sense. Potentially, like, a year. So it's like they're trying to decide, like, who is the person that you want to do that with and that you also want to, like, help along. And it's like, I think that that's a way to. To recognize that as, like, a strength, but it's also a way to not take things personally when it's like, if you don't get a job, it's not because you aren't qualified. It's because, like, every. [00:42:56] Speaker B: Not cool. I'm kidding. Right, right, right. That's a joke. [00:42:59] Speaker A: That is like, every, like, like everyone is called. There's a lot of. It's like, this is an industry where there's like, overquality, there's a few, very few jobs situation, and there's a lot of people that are like, extremely qualified. [00:43:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:10] Speaker A: So like, it kind of has to be like, right place. Even. Like, the way that I got put up for this job was by a writer who didn't hire me as a writer's assistant on a job like two or three months ago. But then we've like, stayed friends and she was like, so great. And she was like, hey, but I have a friend who's like, setting something up. Do you still. Are you still looking for things like this? I was like, totally. [00:43:28] Speaker C: That's the only way you're gonna get a job. [00:43:29] Speaker A: Yeah. It's so like a great example of how like, it's like that notion of networking, but it has to be like, real connection of like, we really did become friends. We got to know each other pretty well. And then she was like, I'm. She was like, I actually really. It's like, I'm gonna help you out with this, you know. That's amazing. [00:43:47] Speaker B: You've had quite a broad like you. You've tapped into a lot of jobs. [00:43:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:53] Speaker B: Spaces of the industry. Even like teaching already. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:43:56] Speaker B: Awesome. What? And you've mentioned it too. Of like, oh, like, I learned so much from here. I learned so much from this producer. Like, what are some of the big takeaways from the vast jobs you've had? [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Maybe I can kind of break it down. Like, per. So, like, the post production assistant role was cool because it was like I learned kind of like top to bottom the workflows of like, how a show that had at that scale, like reality TV get. Gets made. Like, and then just a lot of like, the logistics and also just even practical things of like some of the stuff that at least maybe you learn this in a more traditional film school. But like, I didn't even know about, like, like, it's like, oh, like when you're filling out your time card and you're like. It's like there's a. It's like you. It's like you automatically get 60 hours a week with a certain amount of overtime, because the expectation is that this comes from a model that Used to be like it's like 12 hour days on set but that's how you get paid. Like it's like I didn't even know things like that. I didn't. And it's like it was like a very foundational learning of just like kind of getting a sense of even like what is a post supervisor? What is an asset manager? Like why do you need all those jobs? Like I learned a lot especially about like because, because it was remote for like basically the entirety of like it used to be they have this massive office that they got right before the pandemic that then everyone became remote. So a big part of my job was like doing the things in office for assistant editors and editors that like they couldn't do because they would usually do in office. So it was a great opportunity of like I would like transcode footage and avid for people and be like organizing like be like doing AE like organization for it. So it's like those are things that like I had no idea. There's all these like expectations and like practices that go into like how you. Really practical stuff. Yeah. And it's like really practical things and like industry wide expectations that like I've seen kind of even just like to then like learn from like like career assistant editors and editors like how they like organize their files. Like it's like how you can like most efficiently like transcode and then like work on something and then like I use those same systems even like when I edit my own things or edit for other people. Like stuff like that is very practical. [00:46:01] Speaker B: Is there one like organization tip that you can give to the audience listening of just like oh man, like this changed everything for me. [00:46:13] Speaker A: I would say it doesn't have to be like like the industry expectation but like when it comes to like your file management like come up with a system that's like really regimented and stick with it. So whatever works for you. But like in terms of like like every project that I make I set up the folder for it the exact same way of like project files, exports, footage, audio. [00:46:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:38] Speaker A: Like it's like. And so it's like it's like you come up with a system that you do it the same way every time so that like you're never like searching for something, seeking it out. And then of course like I'm not the best about this but it's like even though hard drives are expensive, you have, you have to be backing things up and you have to not be like overloading them. So I've become a big Fan of like every major project gets its own hard drive if it's that big. Like, like RP has its own hard drive like some other. Like, then I separate out by being like, I have like a hard drive for like my freelance jobs as opposed to like personal projects. And like it's like ways to just like keep your straight. I think is good. [00:47:12] Speaker B: It's. It's kind of. It's what sounds like just learning and seeing that at the highest level is like added that professionalism to your own personally. [00:47:19] Speaker A: Exactly. Because it's like I'm such a big fan of like, I love knowing industry standard. Not because you have to do everything that way, but because like it's good to know like a lot of that stuff is a certain way, like for a reason. And it's because it's the best way to do it. But then you can be like, well, but for my personal preference or but for what I'm doing, I'm going to do this a slightly different way. But it's like, it's good to know what the expectation is when you're talking to other people or like. [00:47:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like what, speak a language as that. [00:47:44] Speaker A: Exactly. So I think that that job, it was a lot of like very like technical knowledge. The job with Tiffany was a lot more. That was like a crash course for a year in like development because she had like. It was like, like projects at various stages. She had projects in various stages across the board of like. It was like Zoe Kravitz's first narrative feature. And then it's various documentaries and different development of. There's one that's a very traditional kind of docu series with time. But then there's also one that we're just doing with another producer and you learn it's juggling multiple things and that the work of a producer truly is just finding a way to move things forward. That is what it is at the end of the day. So a good producer finds ways to move things forward and then not good producer kind of just like spins their wheels and things kind of stay in the same place that was producers, you [00:48:34] Speaker C: know, a lot of the times the driving force, even in like the larger industry, I find totally studios will sit on your project. [00:48:42] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's like a good producer finds a way to like. [00:48:45] Speaker C: There's no motivation for the studios to do anything even once they buy stuff. Whatever is going on is not comprehensible a lot of the time. So. So it's about figuring out as a producer what talent do I think I can attach to this. That would really move it forward. What? You know, can we do another pass on the script? Can we bring in another. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Write even the practical day to days of, like, being like, okay, so we're gonna check in on this in four days. And in four days, this will be the thing that I got. Like, this will be the answer to the question that you just raised that will then let this conversation move forward. Like, it can be that granular of just finding the little ways that you, like, keep it from, like, endlessly kind of, like, spinning in place. [00:49:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:24] Speaker B: It's like, it's a. Because you know how long projects take to actually push forward. It's like, what's just the littlest amount to, like, keep it. Just keep it going. [00:49:33] Speaker A: Just gotta keep going just to be like. It's like. Because, again, it's like, also, it's never gonna get there if you don't. It's like, don't push it. I think that's also, again, like, practical stuff of, like, that's where I learned, like, how you roll calls. That's how I learned, like, how you schedule with other assistants. Like, really practical things of just, like, [00:49:50] Speaker B: even in those two things, though, is there, like, as we kind of broke into. Or like, got very specific in the weeds with, like, hard drives and, like, organizing bins and stuff like that, like, with rolling calls and sending email or coordinating with other assistants. Like, is there a helpful tip for both of those? [00:50:06] Speaker A: I would say, like, I was kind of. It was funny because Tiffany was, like, very untraditional, so I was, like, a very untraditional assistant. But then it would be, like, trying to, like, coordinate with, like, everyone's reps at ca. So it's like, I would be working with assistants that, like, I would be kind of picking up up even just like. Like, it's like. Yeah. Like, it's like. Like when someone sends you an email and they structure a date and a time a certain way respond structuring it the same way. Like, it's like, just practical things of, like, mirror people. [00:50:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:33] Speaker A: And, like, soak it in and observe or even, like. I think one of the biggest things I learned from Tiffany is, like, the different kinds of producers and, like, how there's, like. There's producers that are very, like, boots on the ground. Like, what they bring to the table is that they, like, get shit done. There's producers that, like, what they bring to the table is that they can, like, like, find you money somehow. And then there's producers that are kind of, like, vibes girl. Like, it's like they're producers that. It's like everyone sort of loves what they have to say about the thing. And, like. And also, again, that can be a very. [00:51:03] Speaker C: The sales people almost. [00:51:04] Speaker A: Yes, it's very sales, and it's very interpersonal connection of, like, sometimes, like, the. The dynamic between a filmmaker or a director and a producer is that, like, one of the producers is kind of like the emotional stuff, support producer. That it's like, oh, this is the person that's, like, has the soft skills of, like, when. When the director doesn't love the notes from this other one, they play intermediary to try and, like, get them to make the change without making them feel like it's like. And so I think Tiffany was very much that. So I feel like watching her do that, I was like, oh, this is like. It's like there's something kind of ephemeral. [00:51:39] Speaker C: Very nuanced. [00:51:39] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very nuanced. It's. It's very soft skill. It's. It's very, like, about how you show up. [00:51:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it's about vibes. [00:51:46] Speaker A: Literally. [00:51:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:47] Speaker A: Literally nothing to do with. So that was, I think. Yeah. One of the biggest things I. I learned from her was, like, that. It's like, was that ability to kind of, like, navigate through these, like, interpersonal things. And also the. Yeah. The juggling of the various projects. But, yeah, again, because I wasn't, like, a super traditional assistant. It's like, I. I think that my biggest thing was, like, again, I started that job. I got. I had one day to train under her last assistant, and then I took over this woman's life. So, like, it was a lot of, like, faking until I made it of, like, acting like I knew what the Was going on. [00:52:24] Speaker C: Which, by the way, is another hard tip. Just fake it. [00:52:27] Speaker A: Just. Yes. No, like, it's like, just kind of, like, keeping my cool, but also sitting there being like, I, like, don't know what's happening. I've never done this before. But, like, I have to trust that, like, I'm accomplishing open enough person that, like, my first assumption is probably not, like, super wrong. I'm just gonna, like, do it. And, like, she'll correct me as we go. [00:52:43] Speaker B: And a lot of times, too, if you take that extra second to, like, breathe and be like, what actually makes sense here? It's like, instead of, like, asking that question of, like, well, what should I do? It's like, well, hold on. It's, like, pretty. Yeah, it's like, the answer is there in front of you. It's like, oh, well, if. Like, I wouldn't send that email. Like, I would probably called us, whatever it is, you know? [00:53:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like. And just. Yeah. Hearing. Yeah. Because I think again, being so. It was like I was sat with Tiffany, like, in her house every day. Like, just what. Just listening to how she would navigate. Yeah, it's like, how. It's like we get off the call with the. With the exact time about the docu series, and then she's, like, on with her friend that they're producing it together. And the way that they have that conversation. But then so different. So different than how they're gonna communicate it to. So it's like, a lot of. It is a bit of a. Like, like is a bit of politics and being very conscious about, like, how you communicate things and how you ask for something if you want it and. [00:53:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:34] Speaker A: Which is. I'm sorry that it's all vague, but I think it's like. It's stuff that. That's, like, what. That. That's what that job gave me, I think was like, a little bit of, like, a peek behind the curtain of, like, what that looks like. [00:53:46] Speaker C: That's good advice. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Totally. Was it, like, inspiring and exciting to. To see that and, like, in those rooms, like, in her home with Tiffany. Tiffany, like, were you, like, kind of like, to the core of, like, this is. These are the types of rooms and calls that I want to be on someday. [00:54:02] Speaker A: To be honest, if anything, I found was very disillusioning because I think that I had always thought that. I think it's easy to tell yourself that you're, like, not at a. You're not ready to be the one in these conversations or like, that it's like, oh, like, it's like you feel too green or you feel too young. And then I would, like, sit and I would listen to her talking about the projects, and I would listen to her talking to these people, and I was like. I was like, I can do this 100. Like, I'm already there. Like, I like it. Like, it gave me a vote of confidence to realize that, like, I was like, the people in these rooms are not smarter than me at all. [00:54:37] Speaker C: Oh. I mean, especially if they're not even just. [00:54:40] Speaker A: But, like, it's like, whether it was like, it was like, execs, it was other producer. Like, it was just. I think it just made me be like. Like, you know, when this is like. Like, this is so up. Like, no one should not, like, everyone should. Everyone should be. Should be making their films and expressing themselves. And also, you know when you, like, go see a shorts block and you're like, I'm gonna be okay. Like, because it's like, if. If that could be vessels, are you going, if that could be screening here? Yeah, my future is very bright. Like, or like, it's like, you see like an in, like an indie feature that. It's like, oh, my God, like, they got that much money to make that. [00:55:13] Speaker C: But. [00:55:14] Speaker B: But here's the thing. [00:55:15] Speaker A: Like, we will live. This is. [00:55:16] Speaker B: But this is the ad. This is a very athlete mindset, for sure. [00:55:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. [00:55:21] Speaker B: Right? [00:55:21] Speaker A: It's very competitive. [00:55:22] Speaker B: Very competitive. And both of us, I know we resonate. [00:55:26] Speaker C: We resonate with that. But also, like, if we are to hearken back to what this podcast is about, it's about, like, yes, we can do that. And that's a beautiful thing that this thing that I saw, that someone made, that someone did and put their everything into. [00:55:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:42] Speaker C: Inspires me to do something. You know, that's like. [00:55:45] Speaker A: That's the positive. [00:55:47] Speaker B: That is. [00:55:48] Speaker C: We have to actively remember that. That, like, that's the positive way to do it. Because, like, this is however you, you know, judge it or whatever. Like, you didn't make it and they made it. [00:55:58] Speaker A: Oh, 100. [00:55:59] Speaker C: I think there is. [00:56:00] Speaker A: That's the only thing that differentiates. Like, it's like. And it always comes back to being like. Except that, like, they made the film. And that is what I. That's what I Back to. Of being like that. I'm like. It's like when you're. It's like the thing. The only thing that differentiates between being like someone that, like, says they're going to do it and someone that did is like, the one who actually exactly did it. So. [00:56:19] Speaker C: And that's. That's the mindset. [00:56:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That is it. And I've had this conversation so much and we've spoken about it so much on the pod, too. But, like, it's so unfortunate how simple it all is. Just the simple fact that, like, if you want to do this, you just gotta do it. [00:56:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:39] Speaker C: By the way, whether it's. [00:56:40] Speaker A: You find a way to do it, [00:56:42] Speaker C: whether it's Tiffany's job, Luke's job. [00:56:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:45] Speaker C: My job. Like, all of the jobs. Producer, direct, like, you just go. [00:56:50] Speaker B: You just gotta get the one foot. And that's, again, a very. I think, coming from athletics and sports and, like, working with team, not working with, like, being on team and like, as an individual and, like, going home and, you know, early morning practices or staying late and, you know, getting more reps and. I don't know the crew terminology or. [00:57:10] Speaker A: On the earth. [00:57:10] Speaker B: Right. My brother actually road on the what The Erg, it's called. [00:57:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:57:16] Speaker B: It's like the static rowing machine. But, like, I think there's a different mindset. Like, we're kind of. And on set, too, is like, feels like you're in a game again. Again, I can't speak to. [00:57:30] Speaker A: No, I would agree. Like, I think even, like. Like, I think everyone has a different way of kind of defining for themselves, like, what makes a good director. Like, what does it mean to be a director? And to me, like, I've always just said, like, director is team captain. Like, your job is to instill enough, like, belief in the people that are on your team that they will follow you to make this thing that does not exist. And you will make it, like, literally from scratch and from nothing into something. And your only job is to, like, instill enough trust in that team that, like, when they come to you, you have the answer and they trust that, like, they can't see what's in your head, but they do believe that there's value to it, even though they can't see it. And they are willing to, like, literally, like, make it out of nothing with you because, like, they believe in you. Like, that is what it. That is what a director does. That is the job. [00:58:17] Speaker B: Communication and delegation, you know. Yes, like, exactly. We just said team captain. What. I'm curious what your. Like, what aspect of filmmaking are you excites you or you're most passionate about? Like, is it communicating to folks on set? Is it, like, building a crew? Like, is it that team aspect or is it very individual? [00:58:41] Speaker A: I guess, like, I feel like maybe, like, foundationally, I, like, I love. I love writing. And I think that, like. And maybe that. Because it's like, I. When I first, like, thought that as my answer, I was like, well, that kind of takes away from that. Like, I also love being on set, but I think when. But even on set, I'm kind of rewriting. Like, I think my approach is a [00:58:59] Speaker C: little bit like, yeah, writing can be a broader term. [00:59:01] Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of an ongoing, like, process. But I just love. I think it. I think for me, it is about the storytelling. And I think it is about, like, the incredible thing of, like, it, like, literally, like, invent, like, inventing something and then, like, actualizing it. Like, that is, like, so from air. Yeah, like, from, like, it's like, you like, made this up and now we're like, like doing it like that. It's like doing something that's like, incredible. And even like, then when you can get into a place of like. No, literally, but then it's like, it's incredible watching this. You can think of it as like, even just generative in terms of being like, you write something and then someone likes it enough to give you money to make it. And so now, like, you're, you're. You're giving people jobs. Like, it's like, like there's truly something like actually like additive and generative to it. Like, like, of, like, of like. Yeah. It's like you're like inventing something that like, adds a real value to people's lives. And that's like, not even getting into. Like, if you make something that like, that actually connects with people, maybe that's like another. I don't know. I think that I love the process of making and I also think that, like, when you have made. Maybe the place that I'm in now, having had a couple experiences where like, I've made something and I was lucky enough to get to like, see it have an impact. Like, it's like, like that feeling of like being like, oh my God, like, I, like, made this out of nothing and it really, like it spoke to someone. But in that way I'm like. I think if you make anything and it does that for even like one person. [01:00:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:00:28] Speaker B: Then the thing is success. [01:00:30] Speaker A: Like, it's like. Then it's like, there you have it. Like, that's the value add, you know? [01:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. [01:00:37] Speaker A: I guess to overtly answer the question, I love writing. Maybe that's like also just. I think the moment that I'm in, being in the room right now, it's making me like. I think last year I had a moment, it was the first year in a really long time that I didn't finish a new film and I didn't write a new script. And like this year I've really kind of fallen back in love with writing and the process of like being in that moment where you're like working through it and it's like coming to you in real time. And I think being in the room and like, I think my strength as a writer kind of more naturally is more like character stuff and like interaction based. But being in a room with these people that are like, like these writers are like experts on like breaking story and like, like, it's like story in a more kind of Like, I tend to think, like, small and then grow big. But they are experts on, like, what you have to do in a room which is like, very wide and then narrow and narrow and narrow. And that's been like, a really, really fun to learn that process. And it's also integral because, like, that's how all television is written. So, like, if you want to work in television writing, you have to learn it. So that's been cool. [01:01:36] Speaker C: That's amazing. I feel like we could do a whole other episode on so many different, different tangents that we've taken. [01:01:42] Speaker B: I. I just want to ask about, like, work ethic and like, how. Because you've established that you have. Sorry to jump. [01:01:49] Speaker C: No, please. [01:01:49] Speaker B: But you, like, with the doc feature and like, you taking the time, weekends or 5 minute, 10 minutes, an hour here and there, whatever, to edit and shoot an interview and edit it, like, and then you finished it. Yeah. You did the thing and you clearly still have that. Like, you're writing. Like you said, you're writing scripts. You're still making stuff and completing those things. Are you writing daily? Are you writing once a week or once a month? I'm focusing on writing now because you mentioned that you're passionate about. Or are you kind of just like, letting yourself be and just like, I'm excited to write. I know I don't have the most time right now, but, like, I know I'll get to it. Or is it that athletic again, that athlete mindset of, like, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps. [01:02:32] Speaker A: I think it's a little bit. It's kind of like. It's a little bit of that, like, reps mindset, but in a way that's like, super unstructured. So, like, it's kind of contextualized by that. One of my, like, longest on growing because I still make, like, other, like, art kind of projects of, like, writing projects like poetry and whatever. And like, since like, 2017, I'm like, oh, my God, that's like nine years ago. That's crazy. I've been doing this thing where I'll do like a daily writing process for extended periods of time. So, like, the first time it was like 100 days. And then I did it for like three months and then did it for a year. And then, like, we'll take a year off and then do it for another year. And that's more like auto fiction, poetry, prose that then, like, I kind of, [01:03:10] Speaker B: like, turn into a different writing once a day, basically. [01:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's like. And it can Be like, at any time about anything. But it tends to be more like autofiction. Kind of like, it all adds up to be like a memoir, essentially. But so what I found is, like, what works really well for me is to say, like, I'm going to write. Like, it's like, not even that I. It's like, kind of. It's like I get into a flow where it's like, I write most days whenever I feel like it, however. I feel like it, however, is convenient because I think that a lot of people get bogged down with needing to come up with some kind of structure. And then when you can't meet the expectation you set for yourself perfectly, you're like, oh, then I can't. It's like, you're hard on yourself. So for me, I'm like, it's not that, like, I can only write at this time in the morning when I have this long. I'm like, any time that I have to write anywhere at any moment is the right time. So, like, I carry a little notebook in my bag and I will literally, like. Like, I will be, like, in line for something and I like, have an idea for the next scene on the thing I'm working on. I'm pulling out my notebook and I'm, like, writing it down. Or like, it's like. Like now in the room. Like, I get to work like, an hour before the room starts. I'll just be, like, working on my own script. And then the room starts and then I just kind of switch gears and I think about that. And then, like, I'll, like, stay after for like, 30 minutes or an hour, and I'll keep working. Or sometimes I'm like, I'm tired. Like, I'd rather be home. I go home and then I'm like, oh, I have, like 40 minutes before I have to, like, like, go meet this person for this thing. Open the doc, work on it for a bit. Like, it's like, I think that you chip away at it. Because I think, especially I think when you're in school, like, the thing that you're more used to is, like, the churning out the paper the night before kind of vibe. But when you get into, like, trying to write something long form, it's not that you're. I mean, I have one script that I wrote, like, like 60 of the 90 pages in, like, a couple days kind of vibe. But that's very rare. Like, I think that, like, more often it's like a slow accumulation to where it's like, well, if you write like, it's like, if you. It's like, if you get a few pages done a week because you're just kind of chipping away at it, then it's like, yeah, in a few months, like, you will have a future script. [01:05:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:06] Speaker A: Same way, like, if I was gonna write a book, I'm not gonna, like, outline it and then expect myself to write the whole book in, like, a week. Like, it's like. It's like, well, you just write. You write a little bit most of the time, until one day you look up and it's done. [01:05:20] Speaker B: There's. We talk about balance on here as well and, like, the. The importance of, like, I think all of us start out, like, after school. We're all like, just full sprint of like, oh, my God, the clock is running out of time. And, like, I only have a month to make it. And it's like, what's, like, chill? Like, this is gonna be a. If you want to be doing this. Yeah. [01:05:40] Speaker A: It's gonna be your entire lifelong practice, [01:05:42] Speaker B: you know, and especially when it comes to writing and, like, yes, making stuff to make stuff is awesome, and that's that reps thing. But, like, when you're able to really sit with yourself and. And dig in and, like, let stuff marinate and take time and develop and evolve as you are, too, in the process, like, the stuff you make is just going to be all the more you, you know, totally. [01:06:05] Speaker A: And just like, like, being reasonable and, like, sustainable about how if you want. If you want to be, like, having a practice, like, throughout your life, like, there's going to be, like, I was really hard on myself all through last year for, like, not, like, finishing a new script, for not making a new film. And then I was like, well, I also have to take into account that, like, I had, like, a year in my life where there was, like, a lot of things. There were many things happening that it's like, well, yeah, that's why I wasn't working on stuff. And for a long time, I was really. I was hard on myself. And then of course, you get in your head and you're like. And I'm like, I told my agent I would send this, and I never did. And, like, it's like, is this, like, fucked up? All these relationships, whatever? And it's like, to get to be able to be, like, talked down and be like, no, that's actually like. Like, so caught. Like, it's like, what's more common is that it's like someone says that they're gonna get something done Something comes up in their life, you can do it later. Maybe you never even end up doing. Like, it's like, it's okay. Like, it's not the end of the world. But I think that that was a big thing for me, was being realistic of, like, I had set this goal for myself after graduating then I was like, I want to. I don't want to be like, I. I'd seen so many other, like, people graduate, and then it's like, they never make another film. They never continue to work on something. I didn't want to fall into that. So I was like, I'm gonna make a film a year. And then it's like, well, also last year, I had a big year where it's like, I didn't finish a new film because, like, I spent all year doing, like, fellowship stuff. And, like, I got, like, a grant, and I had to do things for that. And, like. And it was, like, pretty great. I was kind of like, yeah, like, it was like. It was like, I'm. I'm ignoring all of these, like, huge accolades that I've. That actually were. Like, the year prior had been like, this is year that I want to get reps, and, like, I want to get this, and I want to get one of these. And then it's like. Like, I got all those things that I said I was pursuing, but then I didn't do, like, one of the things on the list, and I'm like, that's crazy that I wasted the year. I'm like, that's not true. Yeah, like, some years, it's like, okay, well, I had, like, made a bunch of things, and I'd worked on a lot of stuff, like, in the years prior. So last year was kind of like, well, now I'm kind of, like, reaping what I sowed in a good way from all of that. Of, like, these are all the things that came from the stuff that I was working on. And. But so it's like, that contextualization, like, giving yourself perspective to say, like, let me, like, let myself be proud of that. Like, take it in, not be hard on myself. And then also say, but that's not gonna make me complacent. Like, I need to get back on it. So then this year, I was, hold [01:08:09] Speaker B: yourself accountable for sure. [01:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So then I was kind of back to being like, okay, last year, there were a bunch of reasons why I wasn't on it, and now I've done something about those reasons because, like, I'm not gonna let my life entirely become that I'd, like, never make another film or I never finish another script. [01:08:22] Speaker B: Great. [01:08:23] Speaker A: You know stuff. [01:08:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:27] Speaker C: Well, I want to be wary of time. And we do have one final question that we ask our guests. [01:08:31] Speaker A: Okay. [01:08:32] Speaker C: And it's intentionally vague. Oh, what is the dream for you? [01:08:36] Speaker A: What is the dream? Right now my dream is, like, is making the first narrative feature next year. [01:08:46] Speaker C: Sick. [01:08:46] Speaker A: That's the thing that's kind of. [01:08:48] Speaker B: I want to talk about that. We didn't even talk about your Instagram show presentation. [01:08:52] Speaker A: I want to talk about what's troubling you, bro. [01:08:54] Speaker B: I want to talk about more. [01:08:55] Speaker A: Take class. [01:08:57] Speaker C: I want to take your class. [01:08:58] Speaker B: Wait, the IG show is dead? [01:09:00] Speaker A: Because Sony was, like, paying us to make it, and. No, they're not, because Josh used to work. [01:09:04] Speaker C: Oh, that's how. Is that how you met him originally? [01:09:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:07] Speaker A: Oh, we never even talked about how. [01:09:09] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:09] Speaker A: Well, the way that Josh and I [01:09:11] Speaker C: met is Josh Peroni, who was on the pod a couple weeks ago, introduced us. [01:09:15] Speaker A: This is another incredible example of how, like, meeting people and then actually, like, having a meaningful relationship, you never know what's going to come from it, which is that, like, Josh and I met because he cold emailed me and was like, hey, a friend of a friend of a friend said that you made a short, and they liked it. And I'm trying to start a short series, like, screening series in Echo Park. Like, would you be like, can I see the film? And, like, would you be down to talk about screening it? I was like, totally. Like, we, like, set a time to Talk for, like, 15 minutes on the phone. We, like, get on a zoom call, and we talk for, like, an hour, and we're, like, kikiing. And I was like, wait, you're so fun. They become mutual. Like, we, like, intermittently, like, text and joke around, but, like, have still never met him in person. He doesn't even end up doing the short series, but we just, like, stay homies. And then one day he randomly texts me and he's like, hey, have you ever thought about doing, like, on camera things? And I was like, aside from, like, casting myself in, like, yeah, experimental video projects? Like, no. But, like, I'm not opposed. Why? And he was like, well, I'm trying to make this, like, like, like vertical series. And the idea is that you have this sort of, like, therapist character, and it has to be the host of the show. And, like, would you be interested in, like, talking about it? And I was like, oh, sure. So we just, like, discussed it. I'd never done anything like that. But I was like, well, this sounds fun. Like, let's give it a go. I had no idea that he, like, worked at Sony. I didn't even know it was under them. And then he was like, okay. So he had pitched them on, starting this, like, vertical short. Like, starting a couple vertical short form series, and, like, see how. How they would go. And so we started making it, and it was also cool because it was like a paid gig. [01:10:49] Speaker B: Were you on the lot? Was that, like. [01:10:50] Speaker A: No, no, we shot it. Like, we started just shooting in Josh and Jenny's apartment. [01:10:54] Speaker B: Whoa. [01:10:55] Speaker A: Like, and then we started, like, shooting in, like, a peer space. And it was literally just like. It was like, Josh, me, and then Jenny, who he also does two Bed, two Bath, and their friend Patrick, who was like, the other dp. It was just the four of us. And we would just, like, ask our friends, and eventually, like, the show started to be like, wait, people watch it? And then we would get people that would ask to come on. Or, like, friends would be like, I want to do it. And it was, like, it was so much fun. But unfortunately, Sony, like, owns the name, so when they kind of, like, cut all of their, like, digital channels up, it can't go anywhere. So now we're kind of in a place where we're, like. We have, like, an idea for, like, basically the same show but under a different name. [01:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:29] Speaker A: And we're trying to kind of think about if we could find someone to fund it or if we just, like, self. Because we only did it for, like, six months. And it started to really, like, pick up traction in a way where, again, like, it's a great example of, like, if you. If you keep up with it, like, it will build an audience, it will find a place. So, like, like, in a way, at first we were both like, oh, this sucks. But then I was like, well, it's. I'd rather it happens now than, like, we worked. We did it for, like, years, and we built, like, a huge account. We don't own it. And we're like, it would be so, like, all gas, no breaks to channel five. Like, what? What do you do? So I was like, well, I think we just use it as, like, now we have, like, like, the perfect proof of concept to show that, like, this is what we could do in six months alone. It literally works. Like, we can take it. We. And then we could do it another way where we just make sure that we own it. So, yeah, we're kind of, like, figuring that out, but that's Yeah. [01:12:15] Speaker C: I mean, sky's the limit with you [01:12:17] Speaker A: guys, so it's so funny that, like, the way that I met him and the thing that he was trying to do at the time never even ended up happening, but. But, like, over a year later, what ended up coming from it is that we, like, beautiful. We made the show together and we, like, all got, like, like, paid well to, like, do this for fun. And, like, it was like, really, like. It was like. So it's like the way that things kind of pan out. You never know. But that can't happen if you're not like, upkeeping these relationships and you're not [01:12:40] Speaker B: open, absolutely nurturing that or like, putting [01:12:43] Speaker A: work out into the world so that people can respond and you can meet people that would resonate. [01:12:46] Speaker B: There you go. [01:12:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:12:47] Speaker B: The micro budget feature. The brief. The super brief. Yeah, yeah. Like, what's the. Are you able to pitch us or what? What? [01:12:54] Speaker A: I can. I can give you, like, the general. Basically, it's like this very. It's sort of like, like, indie drama romance about this very toxic, like, lesbian relationship. And we're kind of tracking out of chronological order how they got together and how they broke up and where they are now. [01:13:10] Speaker B: Are there any comps for it or. [01:13:12] Speaker A: It's. It's like Lesbian 500 Days of Summer. [01:13:16] Speaker B: Cool. [01:13:16] Speaker A: If you saw it from both of their perspectives. [01:13:18] Speaker B: Cool, cool. Okay. [01:13:20] Speaker C: Awesome. [01:13:20] Speaker B: And then are you. Are you, like, raising money for that now or like, what. What step. Are you still writing it? [01:13:25] Speaker A: I'm still writing it. The goal is to have the first draft done in about, like, a month. And then I've been, like, kind of, like, with my agent and manager, like, scheming, kind of thinking through, like, we have our running list of, like, the people to take it to that might be able to, like, help us kind of cut checks for it. Because I think the goal is that it could be like a $500,000, like, festival run kind of where it's like you get a physical sponsor and you get, like, a couple rich people to, like, write off on their taxes and you make the film. And I wrote it keeping in mind being like, okay, we could shoot it here with, like, the resources we have at our disposal. [01:13:55] Speaker B: Was it almost like reverse engineered in that way where it's like, I. Here's my goal and my intention with the first feature. Okay, let's think about what I have access to and, like, let's go. [01:14:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I think the first. I've written, like, I have, like, the first two features that I wrote. Are a little bit more like a harder sell for like a first time director. And so I, I kind of started to garner that every time. It's like the scripts would like get me meetings and people love the writing, but they weren't willing to send it on making the film. And I was like, well, I think that I would be taken more seriously on making these if I had made something before that just shows. I think maybe 10 to 15 years ago. It used to be if you make a short, then someone will believe that you can direct a feature and then they'll give you money to make the feature. Now it's like if you make a micro budget feature, they'll believe that you can make a feature and then they'll give you more money to make the feature. So. [01:14:45] Speaker B: Unless you're making scary movies. [01:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah. If you're, if you're, if you're doing genre stuff, I think that the path is a little bit more like straight there. But like, unfortunately that's not. I mean the, the first script that I wrote that got me like the black blackless lab and stuff like that. It is like, it's like a psychosexual kind of thriller, like body horror moment. [01:15:05] Speaker B: But it's like pretty, very stylized. [01:15:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a lot more like atmospheric. And I think it's like a bit. It's like a harder sell. It's not like an obsession. It's like killing of a sacred deer meets like virgin suicides kind of vibe. So cool. It's very like, I love it. But I'm also like every. Everyone that reads it is like, oh my God, this is so interesting. I've never read a script like this in my life. I love the writing. Literally. What else do you want to write and make? Like it's always like they're like, they're not even willing to talk about making it. [01:15:32] Speaker C: I'm like, which is totally fine. [01:15:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is okay. [01:15:34] Speaker C: Very much makes things. [01:15:36] Speaker A: It's gonna make like great second feature. Yeah. In the interim, it was kind of basically that like I was thinking about wanting to be like, okay, so the next thing that I write, I want to set myself up to be like, this is the goal. And then that idea had kind of been like percolating. [01:15:53] Speaker B: And the idea is in being like simple, like not as stylized as that other one that you're like, oh, that could be a great second feature. Like the first, like. And I'm trying to speak quickly here because I know we're timing wise, but like, like, were you leaning into the commercial. Were you leaning into, like, the Sundance? [01:16:10] Speaker A: Like, what Were you definitely leaning into, like, the indie festival vibe and also just like, like the practicality of being like, if I write a movie about a bunch of girls sitting in rooms talking in la, we can shoot that in our apartments in Silver Lake Meadow, at the clubs that we like, know the owners that they'll let us shoot for free. Like, it's like Swingers or something. You can set yourself up for success by knowing, like, what, like, what access do we have already? [01:16:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. [01:16:37] Speaker A: That, like, it's not then a leap of like, like the first script I wrote is like in the burbs in Maryland about teenage girls. That's like very different. And it's like. And it would be like, like VFX of like one of the main characters is this like, monster. So it's like. And then the second one is like, about a destination wedding happening in a huge villa in Italy. So it's like, okay, that you can say that. That it's like, you know, so I'm [01:17:00] Speaker C: like, okay, so the next one's in space. [01:17:03] Speaker A: No, literally. So then I was like, okay, start. Let's do something where, like, if we. We can also like, really get bang for our buck if, like, we just have to find the money to pay like our crew because, like, we can use our own spaces. Like, we have connections, rental houses. Like, so that's the practicality there for me. But tonally, like, also. And I think this would be like a really big lesson, which is something that I learned in school and as a, like, persisted, which is like, it is important that, like, once you like, distilling your voice, like the way that people try to track your career of like, the thing that you made before and what you're doing next, like, if it doesn't make sense to people, you have to find a way to bridge that gap. So being conscious that like this film in terms of like, my sensibilities will feel the same as like those other films, except that, like, those ones will cost more money and be kind of like one is more genre, right? [01:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:50] Speaker C: Regardless of the setting and then price, yeah, it's yours. [01:17:53] Speaker A: But like, the voice remains the same so that like, when someone watches that micro budget feature, they can totally see how the next movie completely makes sense as like a logical step forward. [01:18:04] Speaker B: There's proof of voice there. The final question, representation again, the ultimate abridged version of that. Like, how did it come to be? Like, how was the search for that? And then how have the conversations been in development with writing with them if there's been a collaboration. [01:18:24] Speaker A: Okay, so how did it come to be? I had made Ray Play. It was start. It screened at Atlanta Film Festival, and then the same year, the first feature that I wrote in. In grad school, I got into the Blacklist project lab, which is, like their lab for, like, writers, directors. Like, within the same couple weeks of that happening, I had also made this, like, made this short, and it premiered at Proof Film Festival, which is like the American cinema tech. [01:18:55] Speaker B: Like, yeah, yeah. [01:18:57] Speaker A: Oh, my God, Imani's the best. Yeah. And so it was like. It was this moment where it's like. It was all. A bunch of things were kind of coming to fruition. And via that. I remember at the Proof screening for that short, Bridget, who is now my manager amongst a few other, like, reps or, like, assistants of reps, like, came up to me and were, like, asking me about the short, asking about what I'm working on. And then I, like, went out on a couple, like, coffees and meetups, and I really hit it off with Bridget, who at the time was, like, the coordinator for my now agent, Daniel, and, like, really liked her. Met with Daniel, really liked him, took a beat and thought about it. And then right when I was going to sign with him, Bridget left iag, which is where Daniel is, is. And so then kind of sidelined with her to be like, well, what are you thinking and where are you going? Because, like, I really, like, was excited about working with you too. And she was like, I'm actually thinking that I'm gonna, like, pivot towards, like, manager. So, like, give me a beat to, like, get set up somewhere. And then, like, that's, like, what I'm wanting to do. And so then it kind of just worked out. Then I was like, okay, cool, then now, like, Daniel can be my agent and, like, you can be my manager, and we'll just kind of, like, do it that way. And so now she's at Gotham, and so I wasn't looking. I think that it, like. And I think I'm not the. This is not me, like, reinventing the wheel here. Like, this is what people have said to me, and I think it's true. Which is, like, when, like, it's like, you have to put work out there, and then, like, real reputable reps will come to you. Like, if you're like. It's like, I don't. I don't know anyone who has, like, been, like, cold emailing agents and managers and then get signed by someone who's like excited about them. Like, I think that the avenue is like, like, it's like make work with the resources you have at your disposal. Find a way to put it out into the world. It doesn't just have to be the festival circuit can also just be like posting it. And then like, it's like if you're writing, like, submit, like, it's like, I don't think like screenplay competitions that have like 70 entry fees, that's a scam, but like a beat. Like apply to the labs, apply to grants. Because like, that is where especially like younger reps who are looking for like up and coming talent, there's real press. They're looking for like, like, like it's like even like it's, it's stupid. But to have like the shiny deadline article with your photo, that's like you're one of the six project lab participants. Or like you did this like Tyler Perry short film. Fun. [01:21:10] Speaker B: It's momentum. [01:21:11] Speaker A: Yeah, you got the Princess Grace Grant. Whatever. Yeah, all of that stuff is like, it's like all of these people are combing the trades looking for names. And then when they see your name, they look you up and they're like, they're like, wait, this girl seems kind of cool. We want to talk to her. So I think it's like, but that can only happen if you're putting your work out there. So I didn't go looking. I kind of like, like at. I remember like going into like through that moment, I was like, okay, the next step, especially because the project lab, they all were like, all of the mentors, like Franklin, who runs it, he was like, the next step for all of you is like, if you don't have an agent, you need to get one. Because that is how you're going to be able to actually like, move forward. Like, if you don't have a manager, you need to get one. Because like, if. [01:21:46] Speaker C: But that's only at the point. [01:21:47] Speaker A: Yeah, they were like, they basically were like, you're here now. Which means that you've done, you've done a lot of what you can do without someone who can like actually be like hooking it up for you. Because the biggest part of like what your agents and managers are doing is like, they are connecting you with all of the execs and general meetings and like potential collaborators that like, are just like in a bubble that you don't have access to yet. So like, that's what that brings. The way that I engage in terms of like, collaboration on writing with my reps I think, is, like, very different than how most people do. I don't really use them for notes. Like, I'm very. I'm very, like, internal into a. In terms of, like, when I'm working on something, I'm kind of like, you guys can read it when it's done. Like, I'm not, like, going to them in the middle of the process. I have, like, other people I'll go to. [01:22:31] Speaker C: That's. I. I've seen both ways. [01:22:32] Speaker A: Yeah. But it's like. Because I. I had a conversation with my friend Aaliyah, who's like. She's, like, an actor, and, like. Like, she produces a lot of theater. And I was like. And I was like, I just worry that I'm not, like, using my reps to the fullest. Like, that I could be. And she was like, well, like, do you just feel like they're not giving you good notes? And I was like, oh, they don't give me nothing notes. And she was like, why not? And I was like, because I told them I don't want them. And she was like, well, that's a little. And I was like. Because that's not really my. Like, it's like, when Daniel first wanted. Like, I was like. I told him from the jump. I was like, that's really not my bag. Like, I'm very. Like, I have my way of doing it, and we can talk about it after, but it's like, that's not gonna be the way that I work. Like, I love, like, intimately checking in with him. [01:23:10] Speaker C: There's, like, tons of filmmakers like that. [01:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think he also, like. Like, he even made a joke once that he was like. He was like, well, if you were, like, never written a script before. And then. Because I also, like, I hate outlining. I don't outline. Like, I don't. So when he. Whenever he's like, well, we could start with a one sheet, and then you could do an outline. I'm like, no. Like, it's just, like, not how my brain works. But he. He's always like, well, if you had, like, never written a script before, I might be like, you should try it. But he's like, well, you've done this now a few times, and you have your way of doing it, and so, like, do it the way that works for you. Yeah. But I would say being in the room now is. Is teaching me how to outline, which, again, if you want to work in television writing, like, you. [01:23:43] Speaker B: It's also like, he's. [01:23:45] Speaker A: From his perspective, like, you Literally have to learn. [01:23:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:47] Speaker B: From. [01:23:47] Speaker C: From his And. [01:23:49] Speaker B: And British perspective too, though, right? I mean, we gotta. [01:23:52] Speaker A: If you got a feature on assignment, you got to. [01:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah, you gotta be. That's like a part of the contract. [01:23:57] Speaker C: But also what I'm saying is that it's. It's about selling things. Right. And it's about, like, you send a one sheet to an exec because it's a seat of an idea, and then that's what gets you in the door with that. [01:24:07] Speaker A: Totally. But most of them eventually are probably gonna have to spec it out anyway, so I'm a little bit more like. We'll just spec it out. [01:24:14] Speaker C: Totally amazing. [01:24:16] Speaker B: Everybody's different. Thank you for coming on so Insight. [01:24:19] Speaker C: Thank you so much. [01:24:20] Speaker A: I'm sorry. I feel like this conversation was, like, so all over the place. [01:24:23] Speaker B: No, no, no. It was like super chill. Super chill. And I was like, okay, let's get as much information out as possible. Did you learn something? I'm like your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050Fest on Instagram and give us five stars, because. Why not? Why not subscribe? Why not? You know why not? Okay, bye.