Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Growing up in that industry also put a lot of limitations on, like, what I thought was possible as a songwriter and coming out of it and, like, opening myself up upon my own will to other experiences really made me realize that there's no rule book when it comes to songwriting. And that was a whole, like, mind in itself. You.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld.
[00:00:28] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey.
[00:00:33] Speaker C: 50% business, 50% creative.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new how to.
[00:00:37] Speaker C: That was the voice of Anika Rose, an emerging talent in the music industry who is joined by her manager in this episode, Alice Dabell. This week, Alice and Annika showcase what a true creative partnership can look like, just how imaginative a manager can be and just how business savvy an artist can be. If that's not in the 5050 spirit, I don't know what is. Enjoy, You guys. You two, not Luke, are so stylish.
Really? Yes.
[00:01:12] Speaker D: Cool.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: Do you just. Do you just. Do you have it planned out or do you just put it on it, like.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Well, actually, typically we, like, match on purpose, so. Okay.
[00:01:23] Speaker D: But we didn't have a plan today.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: We didn't have a plan today, but usually we have, like, merch ties, and she usually wears a merch tie, and I. I'm usually in, like, oh, yeah.
[00:01:32] Speaker C: The tie is big for you.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Yeah, the tie is a big thing.
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: But I opted for no tie today. On Saturday, I'm taking a break from the time. You know what I mean? It's the weekend.
[00:01:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Wait, so Wyatt obviously has had some overlap with you guys. I've had none of the.
You gotta give me the whole brief here on, like.
[00:01:52] Speaker C: And also before that.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:55] Speaker C: I met you, Alice, through Ava.
And Ava.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Ava. Ava.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: Maybe we know her from high school.
And I am really excited to do this interview because contrary to what you might think, Annika, you being the sort of out there star.
Alice was actually our original intro.
[00:02:17] Speaker D: What can I say?
[00:02:18] Speaker A: Let's go.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: It's exciting, right? Because you're a social media manager, very successful one, and you've worked at record labels in the past and very closely with a lot of big musicians and everything. So we've really gotten to.
I got to this through you, and you were like, can we do a dual interview? Because Annika, you're obviously like a rising star and everything, so.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: And Annika was just on tour with Ava.
[00:02:42] Speaker D: With Ava.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: So there's a lot of overlap here. But we're excited to do.
To do another dual interview for Our one of our first in person interviews.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: So thank you for being here.
[00:02:50] Speaker D: Thank you for coming to our office.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: So tell me, tell me what's going on.
[00:02:56] Speaker D: I signed Annika to Sony when she was 13.
[00:02:59] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:03:00] Speaker D: She was part of a girl band.
It was under Simon Cowell. She was in that for two years and eventually that fell through.
I ended up marrying her mum.
And since we've kind of been, of course, family, but also creative co pilots and that's my very brief version.
[00:03:24] Speaker C: Yeah, that's pretty simple, right?
[00:03:26] Speaker D: A pretty crazy story. And feel free to tell your own version.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: I mean, that's like. Yeah, that's what it was like. She was my A and R.
We almost called the band. Did Alice call? Because she was in the UK and we were like super young and she was our point person and anytime we heard from her, it was like hearing from like God or something, because she was everything and it was such an exciting time and.
Yeah. And then, you know, because we were so young, my mom had to kind of like supervise when we were in sessions because we were like in people. People's bedrooms, like making music at 13.
And so Alice and her connected a lot just in like organizing. Organizing, like sessions and communicating on our behalf.
And yeah, you know, you can't ever anticipate how a love story unfolds. But it did.
And she married my mom and left the label before the band was dropped. And then we were dropped and she. She moved in with us. And we've just been on a really long, winding, very tumultuous journey together in and out of a few other deals since then.
And it's honestly been like a saving grace because one, she's basically blood at this point, so she can't really fuck me over.
And she has like pretty much the most amazing creative brain of any person I've ever met. And so we've sort of just like grown up together and know each other enough where, like, if she needed to show up in a room as me, like, I trust that she could, like, do the thing and kind of vice versa. And so obviously, like being that connected to someone who like, specializes in one particular pocket and me doing my thing, it just like made sense for us to keep working together all these years. And now we're in our office and we're like, doing.
[00:05:19] Speaker D: This is where we try and stay as delusional as possible. Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: We say, everyone who comes in your house to board the Dulu train before they end, you're on the train.
[00:05:31] Speaker D: Okay, good.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: You're on the Plane, you're flying.
[00:05:34] Speaker C: Stop and got off and we're.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: And you're here.
I love it.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: I have a lot of questions. Yeah, good. But first I wanna. I wanna ask. Because that's. I don't know, I have like a. It's. It's very interesting to hear about like the kind of the bands, like the girl bands and like these. Yeah, it kind of. I don't know, maybe in a way reminds me of like the K pop world a little bit where it's like they. It's a very like calculated. Like they're finding the perfect person to match with this other perfect person of this other perfect person. Like, can you talk a bit about that process or how you even came into it? Like with Simon Cowell, obviously, that's the guy that made One Direction.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: So it's. And I assume that was after that.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Well, actually one of the guys in One Direction, I was signed to him.
So like him. And he had an imprint on Louis. So he had an imprint on Psycho. And Yeah, I guess to some degree it was like his vision to be more on the business side of things after obviously having his own crazy, crazy journey in music and being in the spotlight. And I think he comes from a background that's more influenced by like alternative, like rock music. And so the concept of putting together like a girl band, not a girl group. So like everyone played instruments and it was.
Yeah, primarily like a lot of like rock music.
Yeah. So like he had that imprint, he signed the band. Alice was the A R at the. At Psycho and she was like responsible for scouting the members.
And I was in a band before that, so I'd been playing a bunch of shows around LA with my old band, breaking 27 when I was 10.
[00:07:27] Speaker D: Who were amazing, by the way.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: Yeah, these are crazy ages.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I know.
[00:07:31] Speaker C: Thirteen. I was like, oh, there's nothing before that.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, no, we were like out there playing like Zeppelin and Beatles covers all over the city. And we did that for two and a half years and we posted a. A cover of a. Of a Foo Fighter song and she found that video on YouTube and like that's how she.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Were you singing? What were you.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: I was singing, yeah.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: 10 year old Foo Fighters.
[00:07:52] Speaker D: It's still on YouTube.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: No, it's. Don't say that.
[00:07:55] Speaker C: And Alice, at this point, you're not supposed to say that at this point. This is your job, right, to be looking on YouTube. Yeah, I mean, this is how a lot of. Especially in like 2010. Right. This is how a lot of people were Discovered, Right.
[00:08:06] Speaker D: Yeah, it was 2000. It was 2015. Okay. And we were actually supposed to find the band in the uk, because that's where we were. Would have been a bit more, like, cost effective and logistically, sure, sure. Easy. But we just weren't really finding anyone that kind of fit what we needed. They kind of wanted it to be, like, four Avril Lavignes, and you just can't really find that kind of upper artist in the uk.
Yeah, you know, the uk, you get more of, like, the classic, like, singer songwriters, like the Lola Youngs and, like, Adele's, and, like, everyone's a little bit more alternative, I think.
And then. Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: What. Do you remember the first time hearing that cover?
[00:08:44] Speaker D: I remember the first time seeing the video. Yeah. And I was like, they were actually gonna. It was close to being closed the project because we hadn't found anybody. And I think we were like, maybe like, a year into scouting or something like that.
And so, like, I. It was the weekend and I was just like, fuck. Like, I need to. I need to find someone for this band. So I just thought, well, they might not be in the UK.
And I was on YouTube for hours and actually first came across a video of you singing a Katy Perry song, I think.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: In my, like, spiked beans for my shirt.
I was like, so fire.
[00:09:22] Speaker D: But I was immediate immediately, like, she has an amazing voice.
And. And then I clicked on a few more videos and I got to the Foo Fighters cover, and it was just like, yes, like that. I was like, that. That's her. That's the girl.
And I just, like, immediately sent it to my boss and I was like, I think I found the lead singer for this band, but I'm pretty sure she's in LA and she looks incredibly young because we weren't scouting that young, you know?
And I sent it to him, and, yeah, within two weeks, we were out here and they were doing a showcase for us in the band.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: In the span of two weeks?
[00:09:57] Speaker A: In the span of two weeks.
[00:09:58] Speaker D: Yeah, it was. It was quick.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: My mom thought she was a bot because she, like, DM me on Twitter.
And my mom was like, like, I.
[00:10:05] Speaker D: Work for Sony Music.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: I was like, mom, you don't believe in me enough. Like, maybe she's real.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Like, I don't know.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: She's like, I don't think so, babe. Go back to school.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: The train was rolling. The train was already rolling.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:10:19] Speaker C: Let's dig into when you first saw that video. What do you mean by she was the perfect person?
[00:10:25] Speaker D: What.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: What was it. About her. Because you said she was a great singer.
[00:10:28] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:10:29] Speaker C: As someone. Because this is a majority film podcast and we. We dig into all forms of entertainment, but I'm particularly interested in, like, the scouting talent part of it. Was there a specific. Specific quality to her voice, a specific texture and look that you were looking for?
[00:10:45] Speaker D: You know, it was honestly, like, you just have a thing. And like, she. First of all, they recreated the actual video for the song. So, like, the whole, like, it's obviously so funny because it's like la and so, like, everyone knows someone in entertainment, so the parents are all in entertainment, so they were able to rent a space and find someone to film it. And it looks amazing. Like, it looks like a super expensive music video. I don't know how much they spent.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Oh, my God, it was hilarious. We did. We did the Pretender.
[00:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: And like, we had, like, our guitarist parents, like, dress up in, like, the big suits and then the stormtrooper cops and then, like, in post, they just, like, copy. They, like, duplicated them. But it's literally like my guitarist parents were like, lawyers just, like, in.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: And the. Yeah.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: No, it's mortifying.
[00:11:36] Speaker D: It's an amazing video and you just, like, you just owned it. Like, she just had, like, that stuff.
[00:11:40] Speaker C: You have to own it. That's another, like, oh, that's.
[00:11:43] Speaker D: This is what it is. It's like, I believed her. And I always say this about Annika. It's like when I watch her perform, I believe her. Like, there's no part of me that's like, I don't believe you. And I believe. I believed her. Like, she sold it. And I was like, this is the girl.
[00:11:56] Speaker C: She makes it look easy.
[00:11:57] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:58] Speaker D: It was like, the whole thing.
We should include a small clip.
We'll include the whole thing, then you'll get it. You'll get it. When you see the clip, you'll be like, oh, yeah, obviously.
Yeah.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: And so you get the. The tweet from the bot.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: The dm.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: And your mom's like, no way.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: No way.
[00:12:13] Speaker B: And you're like, mom, trust me.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Trust me.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: I got it. What was the. Because two weeks again. That's a quick. And they're coming from London or the uk, wherever you guys were coming from.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: What was that conversation like with your parents? Parents.
[00:12:24] Speaker D: And.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: And I assume they were pretty supportive of this. If they went out and helped you with this video you have in this band at such a young age.
[00:12:31] Speaker C: You're from LA, right?
[00:12:32] Speaker A: I'm from LA and my mom moved here when when she was 17, from Boston to be a musician. And my dad designed recording studios for a long time back when that was actually, like, a business model.
And so, like, yeah, you know, the most fun, valuable thing I had was support from my parents during, like, some of the most formative years of my life.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: When you were 10?
[00:12:55] Speaker A: When I was 10. Yeah. My mom, I. I mean, it was like, full momager style, you know?
[00:13:00] Speaker C: Like, I. Luke, what were we doing?
[00:13:02] Speaker B: Soccer. For sure.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: Like, that's hard. See, I never got around to doing the whole sport. I mean, I was a gymnast for a few years, but, like, you know, now I can barely, like, touch my toes, so it's an issue for me.
But, yeah, the. The conversation happened really quickly. It gets a little murky in my memory because it was such a rapid time in my life, and I was also super young. But I remember we did, like, my. My original band that I was in, it was two guys and two girls. And I remember we put together a showcase at East West Studios, and I think One Direction, we're recording their last album. And so the Psycho team flew out because they were recording at that studio.
So, like, all the guys were there, and we were just, like, in the back room, and the team came and we did this showcase, and we were supposed to maybe sign a development deal with that band, because, honestly, like, the band was fantastic. We were all super young, but everyone was really good.
And eventually, I think the team at Psycho found their way back to, like, the original idea and just wanted the two girls to sort of migrate over into.
Into, like, the. The Sony land, if you will.
[00:14:16] Speaker D: And.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: And then we scouted two other. Two other members. And that's, like, when I started doing sessions and getting on that hamster wheel.
[00:14:23] Speaker C: Is four just a good number for a band?
[00:14:26] Speaker A: No.
[00:14:27] Speaker C: I know nothing.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: No, there's no good number for a band, especially when you're, like, young, like, teenage girls. And also, like, the.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: This is a dream come true, though, right? Like, I assume at the time.
[00:14:40] Speaker D: I.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Mean, Alice used to send, like, black, like, Escalades to my freshman year of high school to pick me up. I was like, bye, bitch.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: You know what you were doing?
[00:14:47] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: She was like. She was selling it. She was selling the dream.
[00:14:51] Speaker C: Yeah, that's good.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: But, yeah, it was a really interesting thing. Like, it was definitely extremely exciting. But I think being thrown into the fire and, like, something retrospective, respectively, that I think a lot about now is. It's sort of, like, confined me in a way to, like, what the, like, pop world is when you're like growing up inside of the like, big industry machine where I think if I didn't have that, I would have maybe had more of like, an inward exploration of like, who I was and like, evolving as a songwriter outside of like a major system, you know. And so growing up in that industry also put a lot of limitations on like, what I thought was possible as a songwriter.
[00:15:39] Speaker C: Totally.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: And coming out of it and like, opening myself up upon my own will to other experiences really made me realize that there's no rule book when it comes to songwriting. And that was a whole like, mind in itself, you know, so.
[00:15:54] Speaker C: And you have to go and have experience, right? You have to grow up and be a person.
[00:15:59] Speaker D: Totally.
[00:15:59] Speaker C: How else are you gonna relate to.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know what? Like her marriage to Alice and the sort of like, reconfiguring of my family situation actually became like the impetus to sitting at a piano and like writing. Because before you're in sessions and you're with all these older people and they're like, you know, I had dudes.
That's another thing. Like, you're with a bunch of dudes all the time when you're like a young girl and you're. You don't really know how to like, position yourself in a room.
And you know, I remember a songwriter asking me like, oh, like, have you ever kissed anybody before? And I was like, Bro, I'm 13. Like, no. You know anyone? Like, I hang out around a bunch of 35 year olds. Like, it's not. That's kind of not the vibe. So they were like plastering pictures of like, like attractive famous men on the studio booth and being like, emote. Like, like sing. But I had no, like, firsthand experience.
I couldn't connect to it. But I really had this like, like deep, like guttural desperation to be a songwriter because I knew I had things to say, but I also didn't have the experiences to like, push me to say what those things were. And so when everything shifted with my family, it actually became like a survival mechanism to sit at a piano and write songs. And it took me like years after doing that to go, oh, I can actually bring the ideas that I've written at home into the studio and it's like my song. I didn't even think that was an option for a long time because I was like, no, you're a collaborator. You like, co write songs with people.
But like, obviously the most like, resonant music is music that comes from like the deepest pain and like, you know, know the peaks of your experiences. So it's.
[00:17:43] Speaker C: It's toggling that balance. Right. Because I feel it reminds me of, like, child actors, right, who say that they're like, first kiss is on screen.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: Right, exactly.
[00:17:52] Speaker C: Which is insane.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:17:54] Speaker B: And.
[00:17:54] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:17:54] Speaker B: And not.
[00:17:55] Speaker C: Right. And Alice, I can see the way you're emoting while she's saying this, which is like, you're like, this is creepy and weird and like, it's, you know, like, it's.
[00:18:05] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, it's actually, it's really interesting. Like, we've actually, honestly, over the last couple of weeks, kind of like, had a lot of, like, retrospective feelings around that time. And like, I was watching the new Against My Will.
No hate. No hate. But I was watching the new Simon Cowell show the other day where he's like, putting together another band.
And I think it's called, like, Next Big Thing or something. It's on Netflix.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:30] Speaker D: He's putting together this boy band and, you know, someone in the house was watching it and I like, peeping my head around the corner and there was just, you know, some things that are just still so backwards. And, you know, he was kind of being a bit more vulnerable on the show and admitting that, like, he doesn't know as much as what he did and like social media and this and that. But, you know, well, you're still putting together a bunch of 15, 16, 17 year olds who have no life experience. They don't know how to write songs. They're not artists yet. They don't know themselves. And, you know, you're wondering why things aren't working. And it's because you're putting together a bunch of super young kids. You're having them cut outside songs which they haven't written themselves, so they don't believe what they're singing. And then, you know, there was a line in there which she actually made a TikTok video about because I was like, you need to watch this. This is gonna piss you off. Because he. He literally said, you know, they need to get signed now.
An artist without a label is like being. Yeah, he said an artist without a label is like being a football player without a football club.
You don't have a purpose. And, you know, we've just come obviously, so far from.
[00:19:36] Speaker C: Yeah, that's from. Not a great analogy.
[00:19:38] Speaker D: And, you know, there was a time where I. I thought that was true. And there was probably a time where you also had a parallel experience where.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Like, you were also super young.
[00:19:47] Speaker D: Right, of course, yeah.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: In the major label system on the Other side of the curtain.
[00:19:50] Speaker D: Right.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: So, like, like, mutually and together as a unit, we had to, like, unlearn a lot of shit, you know?
[00:19:58] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: And that was a whole thing. And it's. I mean, that's. It's still, like, in real time happening.
[00:20:04] Speaker D: And watching that back the other day, you know, you were looking at those boys and you were like, they are so young.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah. It's crazy to think it's just like.
[00:20:12] Speaker D: No. Like, you're trying to put. You're trying to make something. You're trying to, like, force an artist to happen. There's so many amazing independent artists out there.
Relinquish control and invest in independent artists.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:26] Speaker D: Stop Frankensteining, like, period. Like, that's the problem.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: It sounds like, as a manager, like, on. As you said, that side of the curtain, like, you're. You're someone that's more interested in, like, supporting. I, like, like the most genuine support in a way of, like, what is your dream? Okay. Let's just help you get there. Rather than, like, you're a piece of clay. Let's. Let's kind of mold you.
[00:20:48] Speaker D: Exactly.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: And asking the question. Yeah, you know.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah, but how do you. Because as a manager, too, I'm sure you could say, okay, you want this, but, like, I know what you really want because I can see it. Maybe you can't yet, but, like, I can see it. And so this is what you should be doing. And, like, just trust me. So how do you. How do you toe that line of, like, trust me versus, like, wait, no, I'm going to trust you.
[00:21:11] Speaker D: Right. Well, first of all, Anika is actually the only person that I manage in quotation marks, and I say manage in quotation marks because I feel like we both do everything. I feel like we're both the label. We're, you know, obviously Annika does all the music, but we both do all the marketing, and we're. It's incredibly collaborative between the two of us. And I've definitely, you know, worked with a couple artists before where I've really believed in them, but they haven't been quite ready to kind of, like, really drive it. And I have been in situations where I felt like, not necessarily that I might want it more than them, but that, like, okay, they need to figure it out because, like, I do know what to do, but I can't be the one.
Like, they have to know what it is. It's like when you want some. Someone to have a realization about something, they have to be the one to have it. It can't be. Come from, come from an external source.
[00:22:05] Speaker C: It's not authentic unless they're the person.
[00:22:07] Speaker D: Exactly, exactly.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: It's also not sustainable. If they don't see it, then there's no disconnect.
[00:22:13] Speaker D: And when it comes to artists that I want to work with, especially right now, you know, it's like I, I want to be the one come to you and be like, I want to work with you because I'm like so inspired by what you're doing. I can see that you know what you're doing. And like I have an idea of how I could like just help you expand that and give you some pointers into how we could grow it. But like, that's the best, you know what you're doing. And that's so inspiring to me.
[00:22:39] Speaker C: And you are providing what you're providing the relationships, the access to the kind of, I mean, and just like the ability to do, you know, be on the ground for them. And also like, from what I'm gathering with your guys story, you're a protector in a lot of ways.
[00:22:56] Speaker D: Right, right.
[00:22:58] Speaker C: Especially with, you know, your parallel paths and everything and you and her going through so much and, and thinking at the beginning that she should be just a thing of clay that people mold in a way. And you slowly, and she slowly became a unit and you became like, okay, I know her and her boundaries and let me protect her totally.
[00:23:21] Speaker D: I mean, that's why I wanted us to do this interview together because I do have a hard time describing what it is that I do especially. Cause I do have a. Yeah, I have a digital content social media agency. But like, you know, and a lot of people do pay me to make content. But what I try and tell people is it's not just about that. We need to be driving culture. We need to, you know, digital media is a traffic jam. We need to be thinking about also other lanes to be operating in. And like this whole thing is 3D. Like, you know, yes, I can make five TikToks for you a week and I can put them in a schedule and, and like you can have some banked content. But like, I don't honestly really believe in that, you know, so. So yeah, it's, it's definitely like, what.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: Do you believe in?
I know you just kind of mentioned it.
[00:24:12] Speaker C: Yeah. What is that three dimensional approach?
[00:24:13] Speaker D: Yeah, well, I think what I believe in is an artist really kind of like. So the way we now, because we've, we've been making TikToks and content for like the last five years. And like, before that, when you would just post one thing a week to Instagram, we would be doing it.
But I think it's like understanding as an artist how to rewire your brain. And like, you always say, like, you now see, like, social media and content and marketing as like, it's just part of like, the art project.
And so that, to me is such a huge part of it is like changing your perception of marketing and social media and content. It's just an extension of your art. And so, like, that is really what I believe in, is like, helping an artist get to that point. Because, like, now Annika's in a position where, like, she'll post five minute talking videos of just a thought that she's had. And it's just like that stream of consciousness, like, no barrier. Like, I'm, I, I want to talk to my audience about something today because, like, I know what it is I want to say now.
[00:25:25] Speaker C: And so, like, finding her voice, you.
[00:25:27] Speaker D: Know, finding your voice about that in.
[00:25:29] Speaker C: The podcast and the ways towards that.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: I was gonna say, like, coming up so young and like, being in the spotlight around Sony and Simon Cowell and like, dudes from One Direction, like, and as you said too, in LA and being surrounded by pop. How did you. Or was that.
Was there, like that moment for you specifically, where it was like, oh, this is my, my breakthrough. Like, this is my artistic voice, rather than, like, me making for songs and they have to put up photos of dudes around the wall. Right.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: I think honestly, like, everything was a stepping stone and I don't feel like that journey ever comes to a completion. I feel like this is the first year where I really feel in charge of my vision and like, the clarity of that has, like, just completely crystallized. Like, it's not, I'm not asking myself a million questions around, like, how should I dress? What should I sound. Sound like when I speak? Like, And I think that's the value in going through so many tumultuous experiences because for like, every hardship, like, on the other side of that, you're just collecting information about yourself and like, oh, okay, I'm not going to do that thing again, or, oh, this kind of person, like, oh, they exhibit these qualities. Maybe I should be a little bit more discerning next time. Time I'm dealing with someone who, like, shows some sort of pattern recognition with that. And so it's just like, a lot of noticing and I feel really, like, receptive to my, to, like, the energy around me. And I also am at the point now where, like, I can trust myself. And Alice and I talk about this all the time. Where, like, the thing you're not taught and, like, the thing you can't sell in a package, which people always try, try to do when it's like, I'm gonna teach you how to be an artist. I'm gonna teach. It's like, you have to cultivate self trust. It's the only sustainable way to do anything.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Can you dig into that? Yeah.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, one.
I'm 23 and I was signed for the first time 10 years ago. And I was, like, pulled out of anyone who had any sort of, like, who I could relate to in any capacity. You know, I was, like, pulled away from people my age, pulled away from school. My family was, like, dissolving and shifting in front of me, and I.
There were so many things ruminating and I didn't know which voice I could trust.
And I also didn't know, like, how to feel safe inside of my own body when everything was going on. And, like, as this sort of bubbles up and comes to the surface again for both Alice and I, who knows? Now, like, 10 years deep into the family dynamic and music are just, like, really reflecting a lot about that time. And, like, the fact, you know, doing it together because we are a team, it's so. It's so wild, like, how many things outside of the work have to feel secure in order for you to go into your work with clarity or a comfortability with. With not having clarity and a trust that, like, if you do the work, you will find what that is.
And that can't be taught, you know, like, it just can't be. And so I think, you know, I've made it a point in my life to spend a lot of time asking questions and a lot of time with, like, spending. Spending it with myself.
Because if I'm, like, constantly reaching for some sort of external comfort, then I can never, like, close the door and feel okay on my own.
And that also means, like, running into a lot of walls, you know? But I feel like now I'm at the point where I'm like, okay, I can, like, bang my head and go, shit, there's a wall there.
Okay, There's a door over there in that corner. Like, you just have to figure out how to get there.
And that, to me, is the most invaluable thing. And I was telling Alice, like, I was out last night with a few friends, and, like, it's super interesting to hear people talk about, like, where they're at with Things and, like, how far away they are from themselves. And it's like, you can. You can be in a perpetual state of blaming other circumstances for, like, your inability to, like, get to somewhere, or you can just go, let's reroute.
You know, that.
[00:30:07] Speaker C: That's. That's. That's the clip right there. That's like.
That's. That's an amazing statement right there. Because I. I do feel like for a lot of artists, it is the instinct to blame external things, right? Which. Which is valid.
[00:30:22] Speaker A: It's really easy to do so.
[00:30:24] Speaker C: Easy and valid in so many space situations. But at the same time, like, it. It does come from the internal, you know, and it does. One thing that I'm learning with you guys is you guys are just now having these conversations about the past 10 years, and you're. In a way. Would you say you're allowing that all to inform who you are as a creative now and influence your work and everything?
[00:30:49] Speaker D: I. I mean, take off.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:51] Speaker C: Like, I mean, clearly you are. We'll get into the actual, you know, boots on the ground marketing stuff and the newspapers and everything, but clearly, in your marketing, it is that and take off and the sort of thematic message behind that.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: Single. But personally, yes.
Yeah. I think one. This is, like, the first year, and honestly, it was the tour, I think this year that really, like, kicked off a really, like, beautiful expansion in our personal relationship. Because for a long time, it's like, you know, when you're a kid, you're, like, hiding things from your mom, but, like, you know, she's like, a few years older than me, and so. And she was really close to me, and I wanted to, like, tell her things, and it felt like we didn't know what the boundaries were, and we were both trying to figure that out in, like, our own individual sense in relationship to each other. And, like, my mom and the family and business and all these things, and we didn't really have the relationship where we could talk about those things because it was such a sensitive point because everyone had a really complex experience.
And now I think there's a level of safety that we've established between each other where it's like, no one is ever looking at the other person through the lens of judgment. It's just simply, like, you feel something. I love you talk.
We'll figure it out.
[00:32:18] Speaker B: That's great.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: And that's been, like, sort of a recent development, and it's the only way that we're able to, like, do this together, because it's hard.
It's like, really not easy. And when you don't come from money and you. You don't have all the resources available to you, there's a lot of mental energy spent on just figuring out how the to, like, pay for something even on a shoestring.
And that in itself, like, the exertion of that can be really defeating sometimes, because when there's such an abundance of creative energy, you just want to be allocating your time towards that. But, like, all of the logistical things and trying to out figure, figure that out, and, like, pay rent, have an office space, like, go for a coffee every once in a while, you know, like, it's not easy. And we have really high standards and those things compete with each other a lot. But I think ultimately we do have this, like, unwavering faith that, like, we know, like, we just, like, we got this, like, we'll figure it out.
[00:33:25] Speaker C: You know, you are. You are very in the weeds on the, on the, the business side of things for an artist.
[00:33:31] Speaker A: Yeah. But that's also recent, you know, because I found myself with, like, dealing with so many fuckheads for my whole life that at a certain point you go like, well, no one cares enough about this. No one actually has my best interest at heart. I have shit to say. I'm the artist. Like, get out of my way. Literally, get out of my way.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: And now I don't have any issue telling someone to get the fuck out of my way and like, that. And not in a disrespectful away. Like, I handle everything with the utmost respect, but at the same time, it's like people come into things with too much confidence that they know what the right thing for you is. And, like, everyone is pretending.
And, like, I'm never of the mindset that, like, you have to be the loudest person in the room to be heard. If anything. Like, I think you learn the most from, like, shutting the up and just sitting there or asking a lot of questions.
And that also, like, took a long time for me to realize because when you're like a young woman, especially growing up in the entertainment industry, you're sort of, like, taught to, like, tilt your head up and look with wide eyes at all the people in the fucking suit telling you that this is the right thing because they've done it before. But, like, there's no rule book or else everyone would be fucking Beyonce, you know, it's just not how it works.
[00:34:49] Speaker D: And I also think as an independent artist, like, you can't afford not. Not to be, like, in the Weeds on the business side, like, and I think that's. You've realized that, like, you need to be aware, like, I'm like, who's my lawyer?
[00:35:00] Speaker A: I need to talk to them.
[00:35:01] Speaker D: Exactly. So, you know, yeah, that's a great thing.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Have. Have time, like, even from when you were at Sony, or, like, more like on that, like, label side of things.
How has the industry changed in the past few years?
[00:35:18] Speaker D: Well, first of all, my entire career changed because of the pandemic, because I was in A and R.
And then when I moved to la, I went into publishing because that was kind of the easiest transition and I was able to find a job and it was amazing. I worked for ten music group who were a Swedish company. They had an office here. And we also had a little US roster.
So I was. I was still doing, you know, A and R, but publishing A and R.
And when Covid hit and there were no sessions. Zoom sessions only, no one wanted to do them. Nobody was really even taking outside songs for a second, you know, because I'd be pitching songs all the time because everyone thought the releases were going to get pushed back a few weeks.
And so I was kind of useless. I was like, oh, my God, like, I'm. First of all, I'm probably gonna get fired. All the Swedes are going home.
So I. I just started making videos.
[00:36:11] Speaker C: Like, I'm in an office by myself.
[00:36:12] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:36:13] Speaker C: I was like, jesus, where is everyone?
[00:36:15] Speaker D: I was like, who am I? What am I doing? My job is, like, basically dead. So I just started making videos, like, for the publishing roster and helping them start a TikTok, because that was, you know, literally as Covid was happening, Tick tock was like that, you know, so that I just. I was just like, oh, I need to. I need to do that. That's working.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: I need to do that.
[00:36:35] Speaker D: Yeah. And I managed to, like, start a lot of the kind of writers on the roster. I managed to start their artist projects kind of from that point. And a lot of them now have, you know, quite successful artist projects because of that time. So that's how the industry changed from my perspective. And. And now it's. It's changing again because, you know, we're. We're five years on from that point, and everyone knows how to make a TikTok.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: You know, there was a time it's trafficky.
[00:37:00] Speaker C: There's a lot of.
[00:37:00] Speaker D: It's a traffic jam. It's literally traffic jam. And there was a time where it was kind of like an open freeway and only a few people knew how to drive. And like, I figured it out really easy. I was like, oh, cool. Hook on Screen Lyrics Ring light, boom. A million views. Like, it really was like we were doing that. And yeah. You know, during COVID and literally those. She hated it. She hated it because it wasn't, you.
[00:37:23] Speaker A: Know, it was me saying, we need to make a TikTok.
[00:37:26] Speaker D: Let's go. And, you know, we hadn't got to the point of like, oh, this is an art project. It was more like, you know, this is what working. Let's do it. And I knew how to do it. And, you know, we did get some great independent records out and they. And they are still our biggest streamers ever.
But it's changing again because everybody figured out how to do it. And at the end of the end of the day, the cream always rises and artists always win. And the best creativity will always win.
[00:37:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:55] Speaker D: And so, you know, it was no longer just like, okay, iPhone video would take text on screen and like a soulless lip sync. It's like, oh, no, we need to make art and we also need to be making it outside of TikTok.
[00:38:06] Speaker C: Yeah. How do you remain ahead of the curve in terms of being in touch with the culture and realizing, okay, this is getting a little bit congested. How do we pivot and look at things in more of like a 360 degree angle or where is your mind at in terms of, like, being ahead of the curve?
[00:38:23] Speaker D: For me, it's always like, similarly to when I realized I was useless in publishing, I literally, over the last couple years, kind of started to feel useless. Also, as a content creator for artists, I started to feel like it wasn't sustainable. First of all, it's expensive. Second of all, if the artist isn't the one in it and doing it, it's not sustainable because as soon as you can no longer afford to pay me because your budget ran out or the label is moving on to something, something else, it stops for you because you weren't able to figure it out. And I was always, you know, I was always trying, I always tried my best and still do try my best to like, really help artists understand how best to create content for themselves. But, you know, I think as someone who creates content, you end up being hired by teams and labels and artists who really don't necessarily want to do it.
And so, you know, a lot of people, you know, they just want to pay for the service and they want it done.
And I also had to be honest with myself about my role in that.
And like, I At the end of the day, yes, I need to pay my rent, but I also don't want to contribute to someone not being able to figure it out themselves. And there are several times where I've said to someone, I'm really sorry, but, like, I actually don't think we should. You should be paying me right now because I actually think I'm getting in the way of you figuring this out yourself.
[00:39:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:45] Speaker D: You know?
[00:39:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Can you talk about.
I guess not that first version of TikTok post for you when it was like, oh, my God, I hate this. But, like, when it kind of was like, more of that extension of your artistic identity or just you as a person and, like, what that conversation looked like between you two, or if it was just like, you woke up one day and you're like, I got it.
[00:40:09] Speaker A: Like, that definitely wasn't the case.
Yeah. She was really urging me for a long time because I think, like, one Covid hit and it's the same story for so many people. There were, like, so many exciting things on the horizon, and I didn't think that I was even gonna have to participate in that. And also, Tick Tock was really limited at that time where it was like. It was like the Charlie d' Amelios of the world, just, like, dancing. And I was like, awesome.
[00:40:36] Speaker C: That was a great era.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: It honestly was like, such, like, good brain rot.
[00:40:40] Speaker B: You know, Wyatt was doing all the Charlie d' Amelio dances.
[00:40:44] Speaker A: That's fire. Can you, like, whip one out really quick?
[00:40:47] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Later, off camera. Okay.
[00:40:52] Speaker D: So easy, though. It's just like, like.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: Yeah, so easy.
[00:40:57] Speaker D: No shade. No shade. Because, like, obviously, talent, but still, I.
[00:41:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't like it for a really long time. And I think it's because, like, my influences growing up, obviously, it's a different time. There was something that, like, everyone had a qualm with at whatever time. They were, like, in entertainment.
But I think, like, I'm somebody who never wants to, like, just, like, follow the. Follow the leader, you know, Like, I want to lead. And I didn't really feel like my participation in that, like, amplified anything of substance. And I think because our attention spans are shrinking, it felt like you had to capture somebody's attention in, like, 0.2 seconds or your relevance was just completely non existent.
And I'm a songwriter, and, like, I feel a lot of things, like, really, really intensely. And I didn't want what I was portraying to be soulless.
And obviously now that's, like, why we do all of this, like, sort of like, cinematic world building, because that's never like, gotten away from me or been like my North Star.
So it just felt really heartless and I didn't know what I had to give. And it was kind of a slow burn. Like, I had a bunch of demos just sitting in my notes app and it was really simple. Our format in the beginning, it was like, okay, well, if you don't want this to be centered around anything except for, like, your writing, then just leak a bunch of your demos on TikTok.
And.
And that was kind of like the first time when I was independent for the first time, where we kind of had some semblance of understanding around branding. Like, I had a different hair color in every video, and, like, that was kind of what people. How people recognized me.
And it wasn't anything interesting. It was just, like, a thing. But, like, she was saying, TikTok was really simple at that time, and it wasn't super oversaturated in the way it is now.
So it wasn't really hard to cut through the noise. But from that, I ended up signing a couple other deals. One in particular that, like, really fucked up a lot of things in my life and took me very, very, very far away from anything that was important to me. And the people there were really, not just really bad, toxic people and were very misleading.
And their whole ethos was something that resonated really strong, strongly with me in the beginning. And that's sort of why I was even open to signing another deal, because I wanted to attach myself to people who were also trying to sort of, like, reframe what it meant to be in the music industry on the business side, actually, like, being in service of artists and taking care of them and. And that's why I went there.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Mission alignment through it all totally.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: And, like, that's all. That's all I wanted to do because, like, you're just desperate to be understood. And I felt like, okay, well, if they're doing this, then they must be aligned in some degree. To some degree. So I signed there, and it ended up just, like, flipping upside down completely. And I was.
They went against everything that they claimed they stood for, and it just took me really far away from myself.
And I got, like, really deep into a lot of, like, health issues for a long time because my mental health was suffering so tremendously.
And she was really still pushing for marketing and TikTok things. But, like, we sort of lost focus on music for a long time, which is obviously super counterintuitive to being signed to a Record label, but that's a whole rabbit hole in itself. And I just didn't have the capacity to even like come up with anything. I was so not myself that anything I would have been exhibiting online wouldn't have even been like an accurate representation of anything that I am or want to be.
And the music was struggling. Everything was just like super inside out. And it wasn't until this year where I became independent again, which I guess was. Has been a couple years now.
But this year where I was like, oh, I'm excited to do this because it actually feels like everything is my idea.
And that was sort of just like a culmination of every negative experience I ever had and trying a million different things based on what other people, people thought the right thing was. And it not feeling intuitive or good to finally go, okay, what the do I do? Because this like I don't want to lose my connection to this thing. And obviously you have to get really specific with how you do things if you want to cut through the noise. And like we're still in like super early stages. But to me now I'm not even stressed about that. I don't even worry about that because I believe in it so much because it's a hundred percent me now, you know, but so much had to go down. Like I left a long term relationship. I met some fucker who literally changed my brain chemistry. Like it had so many horrible experiences and then I was like, okay, I gotta really fucking like, like do this now. And that was. Yeah, there were a lot of Ready. I was ready.
[00:46:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I was wanting to like so, so knowing because you're, you're in the picture with all of this obviously. And then so having that understanding of where she's at and understanding the importance or opportunity with a platform like TikTok or just social media in general.
What are the, the questions you're asking when it comes to, hey, we got to post a TikTok this week. Like what's it going to be about? Like how do you.
[00:47:15] Speaker D: During that time I honestly stepped back from it.
[00:47:18] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:47:18] Speaker D: Because I knew that, I knew that we were waste putting energy into the wrong place. You know, you can feel when you're pushing something and it's not right and she's not ready.
And I was gonna say that actually the moment it changed, I think was when Annika started her spam account.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:38] Speaker D: And it wasn't me texting her like, oh, we need to post a TikTok today. Like can we film something at this time? It was her on her own, starting a spam account and actually trying to figure it out herself. And she was running her spam account honestly for, like. Honestly, probably like, maybe even a year before.
I was like, okay, I think I know how I can help now, because I didn't even really want to come in, and I didn't want to tinker.
[00:48:08] Speaker C: With it or make it away at this point.
[00:48:10] Speaker D: Like, she needed to build it and get to the point where I was able to come in and go, okay, now I know what I could do.
And, like, I think also at that point, you were like, yes. Because I think if I had said that any earlier, it wouldn't have been right.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: Right. You just find your voice.
[00:48:29] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:48:29] Speaker A: You know, and also, like, when you grow up with everyone telling you what to do and who to be all the time. Time, you have to, like, actually summon the courage to, like, believe that what you have to say without the influence of anyone else is worth saying, you.
[00:48:41] Speaker D: Know, and it's all. It's all. It's all Annika. It's all her. It's nothing like, you know, it's all driven by her, like, 100.
It's like, if I have an idea or whatever, like, I'll pitch it to her. But, like, this is literally her thing in a way that, like, you've. Like, this is. Yeah. This is the first time that you've really had no one, like, in your ear or, like, no one telling you what to do if you don't do this. We're not going to do that.
The release is getting pushed back if you don't do this. You know, it's like, none of that. It's like, all you.
[00:49:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:13] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:49:16] Speaker C: Did anybody. Did anybody tell you that, like, you're 23 and you don't have, like, I. It's so. Just objectively such a crazy situation. Like, we've gone through so much in this interview and 10 years in this interview and 13 years we've talked about, and you're younger than Luke and I, and you're younger than Alice, and you're just like, you know, you're still figuring it out probably.
[00:49:42] Speaker A: Oh, big time.
[00:49:43] Speaker C: And you. And none of us have to have it figured out, but it's. It's like a.
It's the balancing of that external pressure and. And what's going on inside.
I would love to get into what you guys are doing now and just frame it as. So when did you start your spam account? When was that?
[00:50:03] Speaker A: Probably a couple years ago now. Like, right when I became independent Because I was like, damn, I got shit to say.
[00:50:09] Speaker C: Okay, awesome.
If we're framing that as the moment where you started on the path to sort of success, and success is finding your creative voice.
[00:50:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:20] Speaker C: Where are we at now with that? And what are you guys doing now? Because it's very, very cool.
It's a bummer we didn't get to see this in the shot, but we'll definitely.
Yeah, we can. We can definitely show something like that.
But we're staring at a crazy, like.
[00:50:36] Speaker A: The inside of our brains to do list.
[00:50:38] Speaker C: It's a whiteboard with crazy shapes on it. And it's also a bunch of new newspapers posted up on the wall.
And I want to. I want to understand the interest of where newspapers. Where.
Where did newspapers come from? And what is this sort of holistic view that you guys have planned? Because it's a cool mix between business, marketing and art.
[00:51:00] Speaker D: Well, I was gonna say perfect. Like, I think all of Annika's experiences have kind of like, just led her into this, like, very clear mission of independence and kind of like what she stands for and what she wants to talk about and how she wants to do things and what she wants to write about. And like, like, for example, like, the most recent release is literally, the song is about how having budget and resources and people around you on a team actually isn't always the most helpful thing for an artist.
And so, like, this entire decade has kind of led her to this point of like, yeah, like I said, knowing what she wants to say, knowing what she wants to stand for, and also just like talking to other artists about, like, you know, bet on yourself, right? Like, you're the only person that's going to do this. No one else is going to do it for you.
You can end up in some bad situations also.
And yeah, so, like, I think, like, just getting to that mission A was like a huge. A huge thing. And like, that informs a lot of what we're doing now is just like, wanting to go against the grain, I guess.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel this, like, strange obligation to do things as differently as I can now. Just as, like, proof that you can.
Because I, like, I, like, ache for myself in a lot of ways when I think about the version of me 10 years ago who was just like, like I said, just trying so hard to be understood and like, given the space to, like, understand myself. And I, Yeah, I feel this, like, personal responsibility to prove that you can do things differently. And if there's like a 15 year old who sees that, that's like A source of inspiration and just like evidence you know that you're capable. And there is no guideline, there's no rule book. And like the only thing you have is yourself. And of course like you build your army off of that, but that's because you show up in the room and as you. 100%. So when you attract those people, you're like front loading everything and they know what they're getting into. And so with the newspapers, I think this year, basically the first release that I did in January was a collection of songs about an experience.
[00:53:39] Speaker D: It was actually May. We keep thinking it's January because we shot the art.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: We shot the art in January. Yeah. Okay, Sorry. So was May.
Thank you.
[00:53:50] Speaker C: She's got the calendar pulled up four years ago. She knows what's going on.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: Yeah, this is 2025, but like so in 2024 a lot of went down, like left a long term relationship. The duality like between me sort of remaining this like constant like person display of character and coming from a relationship that was super beautiful and amazing to something that was so polar opposite just really fucked me up, to be honest.
And that sort of opened me up to a whole new portal of writing and like finding some version of catharsis in that.
And.
And so I was writing all these songs and I had this weird vision one night where I was like, I don't know why, but I feel like we have to do a shoot in New York in the area where like some of these experiences went down. And for some reason I have a feeling that styling is going to be super important in this. And like, I've never been like styled before. I mean maybe with like old record labels, like whatever, but we were doing everything ourselves. And I was like, I just, I want to find someone to like work with me on styling. Because a huge thing for me is also like not conforming to like the over sexualization of women in music and entertainment in general. Like, you don't need to show skin to be to be seen.
And I was like, I want to work with someone who can help me figure out what, what. How to communicate that message through fashion.
And that was sort of the origin of like the suit and tie. But not just like a standard suit and tie. Like it was this like very big like performative kind of shirt.
And shout out Ken Law, by the way. Shout out Ken Law. Best ass.
[00:55:48] Speaker D: We love you.
[00:55:50] Speaker C: And so it's really, it's creating like a kind of. Because now this is like, it's like your uniform almost.
[00:55:57] Speaker A: It is My uniform. It's literally my suit of armor.
And then it just, like, became a thing.
[00:56:02] Speaker D: It became a character.
[00:56:03] Speaker A: Became a character. And then that immediately after we did that shoot, I was like, oh, man. I was like, now I know exactly what my hair needs to look like. I know exactly what my makeup. I know exactly how I move, how I talk, how I. And that character was sort of a representation of. Of, like, coming into. Coming into power again in some way. And so that sort of, like, spawned the newspaper idea because that story had so much nuance and there was so much in there. And I was like, fuck, you know, like, three minutes can only say so much. And I, to be honest, I don't give a fuck if everyone finds out who this person is, because I don't think anyone should have to suffer the way that I did ever again.
And this is like, this is my healing. And so let's talk about this. And like, she has been saying, you know, digital marketing is a traffic jam. And for me, as a live performer who grew up in bands like that, IRL experience is the most, like, potent, incredible, rewarding thing in the world. But I'm an indie artist. I can't play shows all the time. It costs a shit ton of money.
And ideally, that's what I would be doing. But I was like, how do we create experiences in person where people can hold a tangible thing, they can shake a hand, they can hug a body, and they can have more insight into, like, who the person behind the music is. Because also, as a consumer, like, I can't remember the last time I felt personally engaged with, like, who someone is behind, listening, listening to their song.
And also that's more fulfilling for me as an artist to be out in the world, like, meeting people and doing things. And because the EP was called Broadway and Bond and everything was, like, based in New York, we were like, we should just do this in New York.
And so we wrote the first newspaper and we did the. We did a distribution. This is like, right before the Ava tour. So it was kind of like our trial run, but we printed T2000 copies of the paper. And the whole thing is like, I have an alter ego. And, like, both, like, people are sort of, like, reporting on each other.
And I wanted to, like, see what it would be like if we did a distribution here, just because obviously it's home base. And we were kind of psychotic, to be honest. Like, we were running around the city. We printed 2,000 copies at, like, a school printing shop and spent, like, a month writing the paper. And curating the story and connecting it to the song. And then we went all over the city and we just handed them out for like 10 hours. And we were like, crazy. We went to like, all the coffee shops, like, outside Spotify. And we were like, oh, my God, we're in downtown, outside of Spotify. This crazy coincidence.
And we just did it and it was super fun. And then I went on tour and came back and then I was like, like, we should do this for every song. Because every song has so much context. Like, I'm writing about my life and there's a lot of shit that's gone down.
[00:59:15] Speaker D: You have a story to tell. I.
[00:59:17] Speaker A: And I have a story to tell. So we were like, okay, let's do it. So we did one for the song. I'm good. I'm great. And we were like, fuck it, let's go to New York and do the distribution this time. And then after we did that, we were like, wow, we're never doing this in LA ever again. But actually, that was. Sorry, I'm rambling. Can I ramble?
[00:59:34] Speaker C: This is.
[00:59:35] Speaker A: This was actually pretty sick because we went to New York with a thousand copies of the newspapers in my suitcase. And I actually went there to shoot a video with my best friend who helps me make music videos. And we had no idea what we to.
[00:59:46] Speaker B: Were going.
[00:59:46] Speaker A: Going to do with the papers. And I got there and I, like, went on my spam account and I posted a video and I was like, hey, if anyone is interested in physical media or music and you want to help me distribute these. These papers on August 6th, like, comment and I'll come meet you somewhere in the city. I'll give you a stack of papers, and on August 6th, you can go out and you can help me distribute them. Because I was. I've been in Stockholm for a lot of this year writing music. And so I was going back to Sweden, so I wasn't going to be here the day the song came out.
And so I was in New York the week before and I posted that video and, like, hundreds of people were responding. So we spent two days, like, running all around the city, meeting up with strangers, giving them stacks of papers.
[01:00:27] Speaker C: Why wouldn't you just tell them I'm in this place and come to me?
[01:00:30] Speaker A: Well, so then on the third day, I was like, fuck, let's meet, let's post. There's a coffee shop. I'll be there at 2pm Come meet me here.
[01:00:38] Speaker C: More traditional way.
[01:00:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. It took me a second.
[01:00:40] Speaker D: You know, she's Not. She's not famous either, you know, and we really needed people to help us.
[01:00:44] Speaker C: I mean, I think it's like, we need to go.
[01:00:46] Speaker A: We didn't. I expected one person to respond, you know, Like, I wasn't. I didn't have any.
[01:00:50] Speaker C: It's about the effort.
[01:00:51] Speaker B: Right.
[01:00:51] Speaker C: And it's about the connecting with people. That's the whole point of physical media. Right. Which is so. I mean, in our industry, it's the importance of theaters. Right?
[01:00:59] Speaker B: Like, yeah.
[01:00:59] Speaker C: When you ask the question, when's. When's the last time you engaged physically with people in a space to celebrate art? It's like going to a theater, going to a play. Like, those are. Those are the things that make Luke and I excited.
[01:01:11] Speaker A: Totally. It's so important.
[01:01:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And like, eventually the third day, I was like, hey, I'll be at Blank Street. Like, come. And it was crazy because people, like, showed up in the suit and tie. And, like, people came. People came in and I was like, what is happening? And then we just talked to people.
I had little mini. But like, everyone was. Everyone was like a creative. You know, like, everyone was like, oh, I'm a. It's an amazing community. It's an amazing community. And.
And also, like, at this level, the coolest thing is, like, we're also doing favors for people and, like, they're doing favors for us. And it's just like mutual exchange of creative energy, which is super cool.
[01:01:47] Speaker C: Luke, we should have shown up in suit and ties.
[01:01:49] Speaker A: Yeah. What the fuck, guys?
[01:01:51] Speaker C: It's.
[01:01:52] Speaker B: It's. It's getting dry clean.
[01:01:53] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:01:53] Speaker A: Right next door.
Yeah. And then I went to Sweden and we made a video and we were like, meet under the Broadway and Bond sign at this time. There's 2,000 papers waiting underneath the sign. Go there and just film the whole thing. So I woke, I went to bed. I'm nine hours ahead in Europe and I go to sleep and I wake up and one. Not only did we get like, amazing, like, DSP support for the first time, but I woke up to like, all of this video content of like 20, 20 people in a suit and tie running around New York with thousands of my papers just putting them everywhere. Washington Square park. They're here, they're there.
[01:02:31] Speaker C: There's no better place to do it too.
[01:02:33] Speaker A: There's no better place to do it in like an hour, you know?
And I was like, what the is happening?
And it's evolved since then. Like, we're really building a rabbit hole.
[01:02:45] Speaker D: And I think it's also just a great example like, this might be a bit a of. Bit of an intense thing to say, but, like, I feel like you really paint, like, with the blood of a wound. Like something very traumatic happened to you, and you just dove into that experience and figured out how to turn it into art. And, like, everything from the fact that, like, first of all, Anarchist Prior eps are also named after. So all of her eps are named after streets on which she lived when these experiences happened to her. So the first EP is called Ventura Boulevard, second EP is called Riverside Drive, third is called Broadway and Bond. So, like, really trying to tell people what happened, where it happened, who might have hurt her, and, like, everything from the fact that, like, the song is called Freak or the first one. And in the newspaper, in the first newspaper, we're constantly referring to. To this freak, you know, and there's.
[01:03:42] Speaker C: I want to read all of these. I've only.
[01:03:47] Speaker D: If you.
[01:03:47] Speaker C: I also love. I love newspapers. I know they're such, like, a nostalgic.
[01:03:51] Speaker A: It is such a nostalgic thing.
[01:03:53] Speaker D: Like, and you just really turned it into this. Yeah. Like you said, like a rabbit hole. You know, you. You. You want to make people aware, but you want to make people aware in an artistic way.
[01:04:04] Speaker A: Well, also, I'm having the time of my fucking life.
[01:04:06] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:04:06] Speaker A: Like, it's also so fun because it is.
It is a big art project, you know? And, like, in the last release, like, for takeoff, I was like, okay, I, like, we literally directed the music video with. With Jonah, who's one of my best friends. And it was the first time where I was like, I. This is so clear to me. I know what to do. Like, you have to let me be in charge.
And I was like, okay, if they. The. If the characters inside the music video, like, if me, if I'm playing different roles, like in one of the roles, I am a reporter going to report on the events that took place in the m. Like, I'm a reporter going to the show in the music video, and there's some crazy shit that goes down at the show. And in the actual, tangible, physical newspaper, the reporter who walks into the theater in the music video is reporting on the events that took place.
[01:05:02] Speaker D: We have a triangle on the wall there that says everything.
Yeah.
[01:05:06] Speaker A: So then you read the newspaper and it's like, oh, my God, like, crazy, like, outbursts at the Hannah Caro show, whatever. And it's like every, like, visual portrayal in the music video.
[01:05:17] Speaker C: So you're in a lot of these videos, you're playing multiple people, right?
[01:05:21] Speaker A: Or you're this is a new development. So that was the first time.
[01:05:26] Speaker B: That.
[01:05:26] Speaker C: You were reporting on yourself basically?
[01:05:28] Speaker A: Well, in the papers we do that.
[01:05:30] Speaker D: It's interesting because this is what I always say is like, imagine you don't know anything about Annika, but you find a newspaper on a bench or in a coffee shop. That's your first point of discovery. And the way we want people to read it is as if it is real. As if someone is reporting on the singer Annika Rhodes, and she's always up to something in the newspapers. There's always. She's always on the run or like there's a disturbance and like, obviously. Yeah, the latest one was like this meltdown at the Annika Rose show. There was like, you know, executives were kind of horrified by what happened because what she did was perform back to them. A reflection of themselves and how they do business essentially.
And so like for someone who's just discovering the paper in the world, that's their first awareness of Annika Rose. We really want it to seem real and we want it to seem like it's a. Almost like a conservative reporter reporting on this singer. Oh, she's up to no good. You know, like, almost like back in the like 90s when you'd see like a paper reporting on like a sex pistol show and it would be like shut down. Like, you know, like you said it.
[01:06:38] Speaker B: Perfectly of like you guys are building this rabbit hole, you know, and people.
[01:06:43] Speaker C: Can go into it however far they want.
[01:06:45] Speaker A: And there's like real life characters in there. Like, yeah, like a lot of the people that I've been associated with are forward facing people. And I have no fucking issue talking about the villains here because again, like protect yourself and protect other people from like possibly having their own situation with some of the bad people out there. And it's never like a huge, huge you. It's more just like I'd be doing a disservice.
[01:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:07:15] Speaker C: You know, it comes from a good place.
[01:07:17] Speaker A: Even at like us like a. The, the level I'm at now, it's like, doesn't matter. Like even if you're reaching a couple hundred people, like that's a couple hundred people, you know, and it's not a small or it's not a big industry.
Like it seems like it's a big industry, but that is.
[01:07:32] Speaker C: It always has more of an impact.
[01:07:33] Speaker B: Than you think it does.
[01:07:35] Speaker C: You know, the numbers, whatever.
[01:07:36] Speaker B: Like, it's.
[01:07:37] Speaker C: It's if your heart is in it, if your heart is in the right place, it's impactful.
[01:07:41] Speaker A: 100%. Yeah. That's the only way to do it.
[01:07:43] Speaker D: And I would honestly say that we've gained a huge fan base this year, especially in New York, primarily from the newspapers.
[01:07:50] Speaker C: So that's amazing.
[01:07:52] Speaker D: Through discovering the music first, through discovering the newspapers first and then going to.
[01:07:56] Speaker C: The music, I was about to ask, like, are there instances, Instances of that sort of organic. Like someone's at a coffee shop and they find the newspaper?
[01:08:04] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:08:05] Speaker C: And then they. There's the QR code in the newspaper, and they're scanning that and they're seeing the music video, and they're like, wait, these are stills in the news. Like, they're connecting the dots. Like, that's. That's kind of the goal.
[01:08:16] Speaker D: I mean, you get DMs sometimes from people who are like, oh, I just found. Yeah, your paper.
[01:08:20] Speaker A: I just read your paper. One of the. One of the women who. Who helped advise on the Takeoff Mutation video was someone who, on the first newspaper distribution we did in la was like, some random woman walking down the street. I was like, do you want a version of the LA cry? And you're, like, handing them out. And she showed up. I was promoting a show. I was promoting the Roxy show with Ava, and she came to the show and she's like, you handed me a newspaper. And she's a filmmaker and director, and, like, she came to the office and she helped advise on some of our ideas for the takeoff.
[01:08:50] Speaker D: Shout out Georgia Sampson.
[01:08:52] Speaker A: Yeah, shout out Georgia. Like crazy. Shit like that.
[01:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:08:55] Speaker A: And it's just so cool.
[01:08:57] Speaker C: We should have some newspapers at the next festival.
[01:08:59] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[01:08:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:09:00] Speaker C: So as we sort of wrap up the show, we love to ask our guests, what's the dream? And that is a very intentionally sort of not specific question, because we want to leave it up to you guys to answer, what is the dream? And we can go, you know, whoever wants to go first.
[01:09:19] Speaker A: You want to take it first.
[01:09:21] Speaker D: Interesting. Okay. Yeah.
Okay. What is the dream? I. I used to think my dream was that I wanted to run a record label.
Like, when I was super young, like when I first started, I was like, I'm gonna run this place and I'm gonna be an exec. And like, I just.
As we've been talking about everything, you know, I.
I've completely rewired my perspective on that. And I think that, like, I just really want to be as creative as possible and be able to make a living from doing it. And.
And that's a general. That's very general. It's very non specific, but that's really What I want to do, and I really want to work with artists. But a very specific dream of mine is that Annika is successful in music. And that doesn't necessarily mean that she needs to be on a world tour, but again, I really would love her to get to the place where she kind of breaks through the small ceiling that we're just below right now, and that she's able to play and tour and make money and that we're able to do that as long as possible. That's honestly my dream.
[01:10:29] Speaker C: It's a good.
Well said as a manager, your dream and also your client's dream.
[01:10:34] Speaker D: But I, I honestly, it really is a shared, like, you know, we always talk about this like it's us because we, we really do both believe in it to, like, such a huge extent.
And, like, you know, I believe in her as much as the first day that I saw that video that I found. Like, you know, none of this is a mistake and there's a reason why we're still doing it. There's a reason why we're sat in this room. Room. And, you know, even after you guys leave Today, we're. It's December 20th and we're trying to figure out how we're going to start next year with, like, you know, not the most money, like, how are we getting funding, how are we going to continue to rip up the rule book. Like, and Anaka always says, like, we're on a marathon. And like, I think that's also a great reminder too, is that, like, you know, we're. We're on it and we're just going to keep running and we're absolutely running it together. So, like, genuinely, that is my dream. It is. Yeah.
[01:11:31] Speaker C: Amazing.
[01:11:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
Oh.
[01:11:38] Speaker D: Oh.
[01:11:39] Speaker A: I think this might be, like, super ambiguous, but I really want, like, sustainable excitement and curiosity.
Like, I think the moment I stopped being excited and curious, like, my life is over.
So my dream is to, like, stay excited. And that obviously branches out into so many different, more nuanced things.
But, like, this is my passion and for so many reasons and I don't know, it's like, it's like some sort of, like, healing for me and healing for other people.
And I'm really excited right now. And, like, if I can sustain that feeling and have it spawn into wherever it does, then that's really a successful life to me.
So.
[01:12:35] Speaker C: There we go.
[01:12:35] Speaker B: Beautiful.
[01:12:36] Speaker C: There we go.
[01:12:37] Speaker A: Wait.
[01:12:37] Speaker B: Well, thank you, guys.
[01:12:38] Speaker A: What's your dream?
Give it to me.
[01:12:41] Speaker B: What's our dream?
[01:12:41] Speaker C: Yeah, we can keep it short because.
[01:12:43] Speaker B: We, We've Sorry, I'll go first. We should change it every time.
[01:12:48] Speaker D: Okay, you should.
[01:12:49] Speaker A: Today was for multiple dreams, by the way.
[01:12:51] Speaker B: But I actually. I actually got asked a question similar to this last night, where it's super interesting, dude. He's an artist as well, and he was like, if I could snap my fingers right now, where are you in five years? Like, the perfect situation. And my response wasn't too specific, but maybe specific in a. In a different way, kind of similar to yours of. I want to be in a place. Place where I can create what I want, when I want with who I want to create with, you know?
[01:13:16] Speaker D: Love that.
[01:13:17] Speaker A: Beautiful.
[01:13:17] Speaker D: That's great.
[01:13:19] Speaker C: That's amazing.
Last time, I. I sort of.
I. I framed it in terms of I'm getting to work on a lot of huge projects in a very small role right now, and a lot of small projects in a big role, if that makes sense.
[01:13:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:13:37] Speaker C: And I want to bridge the gap between those two and be somewhere in the middle someday.
I think I want to steal from yours, Alice, in this rendition of my dream, which is that I would love to, let's say, in five years, be able to be a lot more creative day to day, and be able to not only assist in other people's creative ideas as a producer, but also be generating my own ideas and be able to put those out into the world and. And, I don't know, generate some sort of cultural feeling.
[01:14:10] Speaker A: Cool.
Go, team.
[01:14:12] Speaker B: Go, team.
[01:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:14:13] Speaker D: We got this.
[01:14:16] Speaker A: We're on the train. I love that. I was like, he saw the look in my eyes. He goes, no.
[01:14:22] Speaker B: Well, thank you guys so much.
This was awesome. Thank you for having us in your space. We'll get some shots, shots of everything, so the folks back home can see what's going on in here.
[01:14:32] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:14:32] Speaker B: But thank you so much for being.
[01:14:34] Speaker D: Why do I feel like I want to do a chairs without mic?
[01:14:36] Speaker B: We should.
[01:14:37] Speaker A: No.
[01:14:37] Speaker C: Yeah. That's fun.
[01:14:38] Speaker A: Cheers.
[01:14:41] Speaker C: There we go. I love it. Well, thank you.
[01:14:44] Speaker D: Thank you.
[01:14:44] Speaker A: Thank God so much.
[01:14:45] Speaker D: Appreciate it.
[01:14:46] Speaker C: Awesome.
[01:14:52] Speaker B: Did you learn something? I'm like your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050 Fest on Instagram and give us five stars, because. Why not? Why not subscribe? Why not? You know, why not? Okay, bye.
