HOW TO: Develop IP as a Producer (w/ Tessa Germaine)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This is a business first. Entertainment is a business first. And that's a hard pill to swallow. But even though it's business first, everyone is there because they're passionate about it. Everyone is in it because they are a film nerd and. Or a TV nerd. And once you just talk to the TV and film nerd of anyone, studio, exact agent, producer, doesn't matter. They're going to get excited about what you're excited about. [00:00:38] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld. [00:00:39] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian. [00:00:40] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey. [00:00:44] Speaker C: 50% business, 50% creative. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new how to. [00:00:48] Speaker C: This week it's Development 101 with Tessa Germain, a rising star at 21 laps who provides insight on how to cut through the biz as a producer and always remain story first. Enjoy and happy 2026. [00:01:17] Speaker A: I hate using my AirPods at work because they'll go from my laptop to then randomly connect to my phone and. And then whatever embarrassing like video or movie I was watching will just blast for the whole office. And I'm like, I can't have this happening. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:01:32] Speaker C: Just Love island blaring. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:01:36] Speaker B: All the desks. You watch Love island at work? [00:01:39] Speaker A: No, I'm not a big reality person. Yeah. I'm not huge in reality. I did just watch most of the first season of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Wow. Great background tv, that is. Those Mormons are crazy. [00:01:59] Speaker C: I watch weekly Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, which is sort of. It's pretty tangential to the show being in Utah. And there's just a really deep Mormon backdrop that serves that show in a really interesting way. Cause most of them are ex Mormons. Like, they're not part of the church anymore. So you can see how they all struggle with identity and all that. It's really. It's a fantastic show, genuinely. [00:02:25] Speaker A: It's funny because I actually worked on Real Housewives of Orange county for a season. Right. [00:02:31] Speaker B: Wait, you were Kyle, right? [00:02:34] Speaker A: I was in it, yeah. With Kyle. Yeah. Kyle and I were PAs, and then I ended up being the COVID coordinator. But that's like. That was one of my first bigger jobs in the industry. And I remember some of the crew I just shot saw Lake City, and they were telling me the stories, and it sounded like a wild set. But I was confused because I'm like, the whole tactic of reality TV like this is to get them drunk. So what are they doing in Salt Lake City? Apparently still. That. [00:03:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that. And if. I think. If you. If you drink enough Diet Coke, it kind of works in a similar way. [00:03:10] Speaker A: They love their soda out there. Oh my God. [00:03:15] Speaker C: They have like. Yeah, they have like soda only drive throughs. Like it's. They mix and match. It's crazy. Oh my God, it's wild. [00:03:22] Speaker A: My roommate is. He kind of worked on Secret Lives as well, and he got really into the dirty sodas, which is. Oh, you take like a diet. I think it's diet Dr. Pepper and you add like creamer, like coffee creamer to it. [00:03:38] Speaker C: Oh, yes, I've seen this. Yes, it's a delicacy. It's a delicacy out there. I've never tried it. [00:03:45] Speaker A: Do you have it daily? Wyatt, you say it, you're like defending it. [00:03:48] Speaker C: What do you think I'm drinking right now? No, but. But like, you watch these women, like for breakfast they'll have a Dr. Pepper instead of a coffee. Like that's like that. It's just like they're constant instead of water. [00:04:01] Speaker B: That can't be. I'm sorry. That can't be healthy, you know? [00:04:04] Speaker C: No, yeah. [00:04:06] Speaker A: No, it's not. But it proves that everyone needs caffeine. [00:04:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I do. You guys listen to How I Built this with Guy Raz select episodes. Yeah, it's basically. It's. He talks. He's like a. He used to be a journalist. Probably still is. Basically still is. But interviews like these big time CEOs and founders of like tech companies a lot of times. CPG companies really. Any. Just large companies, whatever. And he is always talking to founders and they're always from Utah. It's so interesting. [00:04:41] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Like there's a really strong entrepreneurial kind of something happening in Utah. [00:04:49] Speaker C: Have you been out there, Luke? [00:04:51] Speaker B: I. Yeah, I've been. I've been a couple times. I've been. It's pretty. Salt Lake City is so pretty. Yeah. Have you been? [00:04:58] Speaker C: I've only gone to sort of more remote mountainous parts. I. I haven't really been in like the metropolitan area where I assume that would. The entrepreneurial spirit would sort of come from. [00:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't. I don't know. But they're like incredibly successful. Like the. The last one I think I listened to is Olipop. [00:05:16] Speaker C: Uhhuh. [00:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:18] Speaker B: Or Poppy. [00:05:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:19] Speaker B: Was it. I think it was pop. It might. [00:05:20] Speaker C: Well, that's the. Where the soda comes in. [00:05:22] Speaker A: Right? [00:05:22] Speaker C: They're all drinking soda out there. Oh, maybe. [00:05:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that actually makes sense. [00:05:28] Speaker C: Healthier alternatives. [00:05:29] Speaker A: I haven't been out there yet, but I want to visit and I. I've heard like BYU is actually an incredible school. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:35] Speaker A: They're really supportive of entrepreneurial students, so that kind of. [00:05:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:41] Speaker C: Yeah. There we go. Well, hi, Tessa. [00:05:45] Speaker A: Hi. [00:05:45] Speaker C: Thank you for joining us on the. On the podcast. I'm really happy you and Luke, I don't know if you officially met at the festival. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Not really. [00:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah, we remit here today. [00:05:57] Speaker C: Luke's always doing a million things at the fest, so I'm happy you guys can have some face to face time. But I wanted to bring you on the podcast because I feel like you and I have taken similar paths in the industry thus far. And we want to get into where you're at currently and the landscape at work, but also who you are as a person and where you find passion and everything like that. And I guess it started on the Real Housewives of Orange County. Am I getting that correct? [00:06:29] Speaker A: Kind of, yeah. I was a lucky class of 2020 graduate, so couldn't get a job. Was working at Trader Joe's for a little bit and then I started working in production and after pa, like on a bunch of like indie lifetime movies and horror films and stuff, I got a season long job on Real Housewives of Orange County. And honestly, it was a great gig and it was really interesting because it's kind of like working in the documentary space. So it was really interesting to see that side of things. And it was a really great crew of people. It takes a village. It really takes a village to make a show like that. Yeah, I met some really great friends on it. Like Kyle. Um, no. So I did that for season 16 and then I was gonna maybe go on to Real Housewives of Beverly Hills as I was moving to LA. And after a year of staying in touch with CAA, I had my first interview for CAA in March of 2020. And they were like, yeah, this Covid thing will be over in like two weeks. We'll give you a call then. [00:07:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:40] Speaker A: A year later, after constantly bugging them, they were reopening their mailroom and we're like, we want to interview you. It was like, thank God I got an interview with Joe, who was the same person who interviewed me a year prior. He was like, nice to meet you. I'm like, actually, it's nice to see you again. How's your year been? And we just hit it off really well and they brought me in. So I was able to kind of exit reality TV and still start the narrative journey at caa. [00:08:11] Speaker B: Coming out of school, were you. Were you thinking about production or agency or was kind of just like A a foot in the door. No matter what it is, where it is, I'm down. [00:08:22] Speaker A: I was kind of willing to do anything. Like I was obviously interviewing at the agencies and just trying to get a foot in there at management companies. But I also was really interested in the ad path and I kind of wanted to explore that as a career opportunity as well. So being on set was really nice and I got to work really closely with some great ads who really took me under their wing and showed me what it takes to actually do that job. And man, is it a hard job. I love it. It's so rewarding. But I realized that's just not the kind of lifestyle I want. I think I'm more of a wake up at the same time every day and go to the office person, which is hard to balance with like creative passion as well. But that's why I ended up going to caa, to see how I could balance that. Like having a little bit more structure in my life, but also being able. [00:09:16] Speaker C: To be creative totally and during, during that period. So you first interviewed with CAA in March 2020, and then during that year, was that a odd jobs year or was that working on reality or where do all those sort of land in the timeline? [00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a crazy year now that I think about it. So I mean, Covid was just such a difficult time, especially for people graduating. There was all these people laid off at the agencies that were next in line for jobs. So I remember applying to over 200 jobs in entertainment and I got one interview. [00:09:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:56] Speaker A: And of course I was less qualified than anyone else, everyone else that was interviewing. So I ended up working at Trader Joe's for a little bit. And that was great, honestly. Trader Joe's, great spot to work at, Made some money and it actually helped me. I was at home with my parents, so I was just saving my paychecks from Trader Joe's. And I started working at like a Boba tea shop as well. And then I was doing part time work for an old professor who was restarting her production company. So I really just kept myself as busy as possible doing these odd jobs, saving the money so I could move to LA comfortably since I was in Orange County. And then when production opened up, that's when I kind of transitioned into doing the gig work PA Covid coordinating things like that. And that was probably early 2021. Yeah, yeah, I think early 2021, that's when things started really opening up again. I was able to kind of hit the indie scene, which was. Which was great. But I was also commuting from Orange county at that point to la, which is brutal. But weirdly enough, that alone got me a lot of jobs because people were like, wow, you're so passionate. You're so determined that you're. [00:11:12] Speaker C: Yeah. You're willing to come every single day. Yeah, it seems like it was a year where you just have to. I mean, we have a lot of listeners who are in that applying to 200 jobs type phase of their. Of their, you know, early career. And I think it is. It is a testament to just sticking with it. And I'm sure you were so dissuaded by everything. I mean, Luke and I have felt that way too at moments. Were you just. How did you, like, keep. How did you keep your head up during that time? By just keeping busy. Because that's. Sometimes that's. That's my instinct to just, like, fill my schedule as much as possible. [00:11:48] Speaker A: You know, honestly, that was the method. Because when I was applying to those 200 jobs, we were stuck at home. We're technically not supposed to leave, except for to go to the grocery store, all of our hair growing out, and just desperately wanting to get outside and socialize. And I'm a very extroverted person too. So just being home all day was really hard. I was very structured. I would wake up every day, have breakfast and then sit down, apply to jobs till noon. Like every single day. I would just keep searching and searching. So the minute they popped up, I applied. And then I spent my afternoons just trying to stay creatively busy. Did a lot of projects. And eventually I was like, this is not, like, fulfilling enough. I just need to get out there and do a job. And I kind of wanted to also help out because I felt so powerless and useless during COVID So grocery store worker was within my capabilities. And then from there I just liked being busy again. And so, yeah, like you said, it's just about staying busy. It worked for the producer. I was doing my own creative projects at the time. I had my, like, senior thesis film that I was also trying to get out there and send to, like, online festivals and such. It was just really about always having the next thing to do. That just kind of kept me on track. And also for me, I had a goal. I had a goal to move to Los Angeles. I needed to get out of Orange County. And so doing those random jobs like working at a Boba tea shop, it all led to my goal of being able to afford going to la. And that kept me motivated. [00:13:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess the framework that I'm tracking is that you have the multiple irons in the fire, Right. Whether that be creative projects, your senior thesis film that you're also trying to push, you're applying to jobs, you're probably, you know, doing like 30 minute zooms, I would assume, with whoever you can zoom like that. That's how I. Oh, yeah. And then you have your overarching goal too, which is move to la, because you know, that'll be. Make you just you know, half a step closer to officially being in the quote unquote industry, whatever you want to call it. So I think it's about having those multiple irons in the fire and allowing all of those things. And Trader Joe's is one of those, because you're making a little cash that you can put aside to eventually pay for rent in la. All those things, you know, are kind of serving the, the career at that point. [00:14:14] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:14:15] Speaker C: Which is really helpful. [00:14:16] Speaker A: You never know what's going to help your career. Weirdly enough, working at Trader Joe's has gotten me jobs and entertainment. Yeah, that is a crazy thing to say. And it was in Trader Joe's in Orange County. But like for CIA, for example, when I was interviewing again a year later, he was like, what were you up to this past year? And I didn't say. I sat around waiting for this next interview. I worked on like eight film sets. I worked at Trader Joe's, I was at this boba shop, da da da da da. And I just named off all the things I did to keep busy and that's what ultimately got me the job. They're like, you didn't sit still, you just kept going. [00:14:54] Speaker C: The Trader Joe's network goes strong is what we're learning. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Like, going, going from structure list to like. I mean, you clearly were structured, though. Like, it doesn't seem like there was a point for you where it was like unemployedness of just like sitting on the couch doing nothing. All day. For you, it was just very much like heavy freelance of I'm working on eight projects and I have two jobs at the same time. And I'm just like grinding. Like every month is a grind, every day is a grind. So once actually walking into the office and having a more kind of like. Because again, structure really isn't the word, but I guess it's just more of like a, A job, you know, sort. [00:15:36] Speaker C: Of a singular, singular job. [00:15:39] Speaker B: Was that, was that, was that like refreshing? Was there. Did it feel like there was a weight was taken off? Or did it feel like, oh, My gosh, wait. I'm only doing one thing. [00:15:49] Speaker A: It was nice that I didn't have to, like, hustle consistently. I felt like I was constantly hustling. And by the time I was at CIA, I had moved to Los Angeles. I've, like, succeeded in that goal. And now I had, like, a stable job in entertainment. So for me, it was like, oh, I've. I've passed that hurdle that I was hustling for. Now it's time for the next one. And I just took all the energy and focused it entirely on that job, because you really don't know what you don't know until you start your first job in entertainment. And I just wanted to have that mindset of, like, a freshman in college again and learn as much as I can. And so I made that more of my. My time and passion project, just learning everyone at the company and learning how agencies interact with the studios and talent and such. And it was. It was nice to have that change of pace after so long of hustling, because it can. It can be exhausting doing two, three jobs at a time while also trying to, like, get to that career position. [00:16:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I think about. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes here, and I'm just thinking about. It's so satisfying that you've gotten to this place where you are, you know, you're getting paid for one thing in one spot, and then you see it and you're like, oh, shit. Like, this is like, in my mind, I'm like, this is the empire. This is like. Like, where do I go? [00:17:21] Speaker A: It's like. [00:17:23] Speaker C: But to me, it's like. And I'm weirdly feeling this, like, right now. Just. I feel like with the year hanging over, we're at the beginning of 2026, right? With, like, the year hanging over us, you feel a kind of weight, right? So I'm. I'm kind of. Did you feel that weight of, like, oh, shit. I've worked so hard and now I'm at the bottom again and I need to prove myself again. [00:17:45] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I think it's so hard, especially if you went through, like, the traditional film school experience where, like, I went to Chapman and it's of the culture is so interesting because freshman year, you are fresh meat. You're the pas, you're the runners. You're doing the jobs that nobody really wants to do and you're learning. And then as you get older and older, you get higher positions and you start running your own short films, and it actually feels like you've grown through Hollywood just in these little four years. And then so you're top dog, you're senior, you've got your thesis film going out into the world, and then you graduate and you realize, oh, I'm. I'm back at the bottom. [00:18:31] Speaker C: I'm. Yeah, I'm a runner again. [00:18:32] Speaker A: A freshman. Yeah. And this one's not going to happen in four years either. We're going to need to work a little longer. So it can be difficult to accept that mindset. But I also found it really exciting. I loved freshman year of college. I love a new start and being able to just jump into something blindly and learn from it and know that, like, I don't know what's going on so I can ask questions. So for me, it was like, it was daunting, but it was really exciting to be able to get into that space. [00:19:08] Speaker B: What was? Because at Chapman, you were making films. It sounded like you directed your. Your senior thesis. [00:19:15] Speaker A: I did, yeah. I was a directing emphasis. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Okay. So was, I assume then coming out of Chapman, your. Your goal was to be a director, Like a freelance director? [00:19:24] Speaker A: Actually, like, I learned from my experiences at Chapman that I wanted to be a producer. [00:19:30] Speaker B: Okay. [00:19:31] Speaker A: And I, I was. That's why I was considering, like, either the ad path or the traditional, like, agency to studio route because those are different types of producing, but both different ways to get there. And I wasn't sure at the time if I was going to commit to production or to like, the studio system. But yeah, I learned from my experience, like directing that I actually really love producing because I am a very type a person. Like I said, I wanted kind of that 9 to 5 structured job, but I also want to be able to be creative. And it's kind of the perfect blend of both finding that amazing talent, finding those great stories, helping them develop it and turn it into something amazing, and then also getting to use my, like, business side of my brain to actually make it happen. [00:20:22] Speaker B: I love that. So then, because we've spoken to a good amount of folks like yourself who kind of went into the agency world, but only a few really had the perspective that you had, what seems like going into it of like an understanding of the end goal or at least where you want to get to, and being able to kind of navigate the agency world with that in mind or keeping that perspective. I mean, why we spoke about this too, of like, yeah, being able to pull yourself out of and be like, okay, this is my day to day. But like, I'm, I'm. This is where I'M headed. [00:20:55] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:20:56] Speaker B: So were you, like, constantly reminding yourself of, like, I'm in the mail room right now and I'm fanning pens, but, like, I know this is going to get me. This is going to get me to the producing someday, or was it just, like, I'm going to fan these pens so well, it's going to be the best. [00:21:14] Speaker A: I'll be. [00:21:16] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm going to get hired by a pen company and just. [00:21:20] Speaker A: That's going to be it. [00:21:21] Speaker B: No, but, like, like, were you. Were you constantly reminding yourself of that. Of that goal, or was it just like, I'm in this. I'm going to make this the best thing possible. I'm not even thinking about anything other than this. I'm just. Yeah. [00:21:33] Speaker C: How much. How much were thinking about that end goal? And it, you know, I assume it wasn't every day. I assume it was like, you know, the way I am is like, put my head down for a week and then at the end of the week, and I'm like, huh? Like, is this at all towards my. You know, like, it's never that. That cut and dry. [00:21:53] Speaker A: No. And it's. It's actually interesting because in that time of my life, I mean, obviously Covid was still happening, but it was starting to ease up. And Covid kind of changed me a little bit. And the fact that I used to only be going for the next goal, looking at the future, I had a really hard time living in the present, and I still struggle with that. But Covid made it a little bit easier for me to slow down and, like, appreciate what I have. So I will say, for that first year at CIA, it was more about appreciating what I was doing. I very quickly, like, figured out the mailroom and how to do that job, was like, okay, I'm ready for the next job. I'm ready to be a floater and an assistant. And was. That was my next immediate goal was to get to a desk. But I wasn't like, I'm gonna get to a desk, and then a year later I'm going to leave and da, da, da, da, da. I wanted to keep myself very open to the possibility, like, maybe I do want to be an agent. Maybe this is something that I'll like. It was not. But we learned that we're open to that opportunity. [00:23:01] Speaker C: I think there is something. One thing that you said earlier that really stuck out to me is that you put it as a metaphor of the four years of college when you're a freshman and you're kind of just repeating those four years of college over and over in the industry because you're in the mailroom, you're a quote unquote freshman, and then you move up to being an assistant and you're kind of getting into the sophomore phase. So when you're in this sort of sophomore assistant phase, first of all, like, you know, can we quickly do the. Like, how did you actually get the first desk gig? And then where did you go from there? [00:23:38] Speaker A: Yeah, so I went in, very interested. And of course, like motion picture, literary and tv, scripted, anything that's kind of focused on, like, writers and directors in the narrative spaces. And I was open to TV or features, but I also was like a huge reader in high school. And I kind of got interested in producing because I was seeing some of my favorite books, like the Fault in Our Stars and things like that being adapted. So I was really interested in the IP book space, and I made that known to my bosses in the mailroom. Like, that is a space I'm willing to explore. And it actually made me stand out a little bit. And so I was getting a lot of floating positions in the books department at CIA and totally connected with the team and loved it. I mean, I really love the MP and TV teams as well. But something that was really interesting to me is when you're on phone calls in the books department, you're pitching stories, you're pitching people these. These books and these stories. And that's kind of what producing is, right? That is development as well. Whereas when I was floating in, like motion picture and tv, a lot of it was money calls, contracts, more of the business side of things. Not say, books isn't business. Getting the option to a book is a lot of business. But it was. It felt more creatively appealing to me as well as educational and how to pitch a good story and what makes a good story. Why do producers option this book and not this one? So I ended up actually floating as a coordinator in that department, which was very unusual. [00:25:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I would assume that's because it's a smaller department. Right? [00:25:26] Speaker A: So, yeah, it's a smaller department. They were in a. In a tight situation where their coordinator was leaving and the next one couldn't start until her desk was taken care of. So they're like, we just need a body there. And so I was just meant to be a body, just doing rights checks. But I really took to the work and I really loved it. And I got to know the team and I think they thought I did a good job because after that One of the agents in the department, as soon as she heard I was like, interviewing for desks, she's like, no, no, no, you're coming to mine. And I was with her for, I think, like a year and a half actually. And it was great. And she taught me so much and she was so lovely. I mean, everyone hears the horror stories of the agency. And thank God I went into books because. Because it was all really nice people who were like, oh, God, it's 6:15. Why are you still here? Go home. [00:26:20] Speaker C: Right, right. So let's get into the books department and the sort of IP adaptation process. What are those calls actually? Like, what would you say? The majority of calls that book agents are making during the day are like, whether it be two producers pitching a book, because I assume that's sort of what you were talking about with the pitching a story, because you're not pitching the books to producers for them to just read. You're pitching it in a very specific angle. So what are those calls like? And does that take up the majority of their time and what is most of their time spent doing? I know that's like 700 questions, but you can take us through them. I trust you. [00:26:59] Speaker A: I can take you through the process of getting a book out there and getting it optioned, basically. I mean, usually the. The agents come in and they're representing the book way before it's going to be published. Sometimes they'll take it out before publishing because they think that the material is just going to speak to people and what the industry wants in that moment. And so we'll take it out early and hopefully then you'll get a deadline announcement when the book is published saying, like, and it's going to be a movie with Universal, but typically we. They would go out with it at the time of publishing. So you're getting the buzz. Maybe it's on the New York Times bestsellers list. You've got all these great reviews coming in that kind of boast the material. [00:27:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:46] Speaker A: And the agent would make a list of companies that they want to send it to. Sometimes it's narrower because they. It's like very niche. Or they know that these companies are looking for something like this, so they're going to give them that first look before they go wide. So Sometimes it's like 20 companies and you're calling executives at every single one of those companies and giving them the short, quick pitch of what the book is and what the story is and who the author is, hoping that they're intrigued and gonna read it. And then you send the material out and you're just following up every couple of weeks to see, have you read it? Did you like it? What are we doing with it? In the best situation, three people call within like a week and they're like, I love it, we want it. And then you get to go tell everyone else. People love it, they want it, there's some interest here. Keep the buzz going. [00:28:38] Speaker C: And then people who. Who haven't read it and it's sitting on their weekend read for two weekends in a row are like, oh, I should probably read it now that X companies, I mean, they're probably not using the names of companies, but they're like. [00:28:48] Speaker A: Three parties are interesting, but. Yeah, exactly. When you hear like, oh, we've got two people who are. Who want territories, and then that's when it gets into the territory situation. Like, the studios are all considered different territories. Right. So you send to a production company, like, 21 laps, and they say, hey, we're interested. We definitely want the Netflix territory, because that is who our deal is with. But we'd also like to go to Amazon and Apple. [00:29:19] Speaker C: So because you have good relationships with them or whatever, you know. [00:29:22] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:29:22] Speaker C: Or you've sold stuff in the past with them. [00:29:24] Speaker A: Yeah, teams. Exactly. You think it's gonna be a good fit for your company and for the studio. Now the book agent has to field all interest. They have this big production company, 21 Labs, coming in, saying they want multiple territories, but then this other client company that has a deal with Amazon wants that territory, but they came in a little later. What do you do? And it's about, like, kind of playing that game and dividing that up and then hoping that these studios are going to come in on behalf of the producers and put in some offers, and then you just get into the real fun negotiating phase until finally that's. [00:30:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the agent's job. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the exciting part. Then once you get it narrowed down to one and it's optioned, they usually have, like, between 12 to 18 months to do something with the material, and then they have a renewal. Usually it's automatic. So they can get another 12 to 18 months to do something with the material. And if at the end of that second cycle they haven't done anything, sometimes they renew that option again because. Or like, maybe they're really close to production and they just need six more months or whatever. [00:30:38] Speaker C: It's a really long process. It's just a really long process. Yeah. [00:30:43] Speaker A: And then sometimes they're just like, we're letting it go. And now that book is back out in the universe two years later after it was published. [00:30:51] Speaker B: So in. In your year and a half on that desk, did you see any project from kind of that first pushing out there, whether it's first looks or that wide, kind of pitching to actual, like, lands in one of those territories, like. [00:31:06] Speaker C: Lands on a streamer, like, actually goes into production. [00:31:09] Speaker A: Ooh, I don't know if anything. Okay, so like, that. [00:31:12] Speaker B: That's, like on, like, it's on Amazon now. And, like, you clicked. I want. I saw the first episode, you know. [00:31:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Unfortunately, no. But that is because my unlucky timing continued at my time at CIA, and there was a double strike. [00:31:29] Speaker C: I was gonna say. Yeah, Something. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Kind of halted everything. That was an interesting couple of months at the agency. So, unfortunately, no, I haven't seen that yet. There are some books I know what were optioned when I was there that are getting close to that point, and there are some that unfortunately have come out of option. But how many years. [00:31:51] Speaker B: How many years later is that? [00:31:54] Speaker A: It really depends. Like, an option can be 12 to 18 months, typically, and then the renewal is typically the same amount of times. So it could be like two to three years. Or maybe they kept renewing the option and renewing the option, just putting more money because they really thought it was going to go somewhere. And then you're at like three or four years later and you're like, I don't think we're going to get this one made. [00:32:19] Speaker C: Yeah, it's tough. And I think we should talk about the other side now. Not to skip too far in your career path, but I do think it's helpful to talk about, you know, once you're at a production company and you are now you've won the territory and you're at, say you're at 21 laps and Netflix has decided to option the book. What are you doing at the production company to move that book forward? You're talking with Netflix execs and you're like, oh, there's these writers who we think could adapt it and take us through what that looks like. [00:32:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So once you have the option on the book, that's the. The exciting part is you. Do you make your writers list, sometimes a writer director's list, depending on the material. And you and the in the studio executives decide on, like, your top writers to go to. You send the book out to them and cross your fingers that they're going to love it. Then once you get people interested, you start doing Meetings with them to see what their POV of the material would be, how are they going to adapt it? Because especially not every book is like a there you go. Every scene already laid out for you. They kind of need to have a unique perspective or spin on it. So the producers talk to these different writers, help them create like a mini pitch. And depending on how many of them they connected with their take, you bring those pitches to the studio, and then the studio ultimately decides which writer's take they like the most, and they will hire that writer. And you get into the actual writing process, right? [00:33:57] Speaker C: And you're taking it to the studio because the studio are the ones with the money and they're the ones paying the writer eventually. So they, they ultimately get to choose who the writer is. You guys can sort of craft your. Your job as a production company is to craft the various pitches. Maybe there's two, three writers you're. You're finally going with and you're working with each of them. And then the studio will ultimately decide, right? [00:34:19] Speaker A: Yeah. It's kind of nice being a production company because you get to do the creative work, working and developing with the writers and such. And then you go to the studio and you're like. And you negotiate the contracts and pay them. [00:34:30] Speaker C: Totally, totally. [00:34:31] Speaker A: Some production companies also have discretionary funds, so some production companies can pay for scripts or pay for book options on their own as well before they take it to studio. [00:34:40] Speaker C: It depends what, what their sort of financial backing is as a company. [00:34:44] Speaker B: And in that entire process of this, like, creative, like, thinking about who's going to write or who's going to direct. Like, I guess it's writer direct, like the writing process, adapting, like you said. Wyatt, where is CAA in all of this? [00:34:58] Speaker A: Oh, that's a great question. So, like, say 21 laps got a book from CIA. There's a good chance that they also sent it to a couple of writers that might already be interested or they're going to want to help you package it into a bit, a better deal. So they might then assign like a feature or TV agent to the book to then work with 21 laps and coming up with a list of their clients. Usually the producers are looking at anyone and everyone, but it's good for the agencies if they can bring in be like, hey, this is our book and these are our clients that are really going to like it. And as an, as their agent, I will call them personally and be like, you need to read this now. [00:35:43] Speaker C: And you are also, you know, if they're not Sort of going ahead with the, trying to package it and it's a more simple process. Like you guys are just, you know, working, you have the book, then you guys are basically making calls out to agents and being like, hey, you know, do you think this is, is this writer available? Do you think this is something that they would like? Can we send it over to you guys to pass along to X writer basically. [00:36:09] Speaker A: Exactly. And usually two producers have relationships with certain writers as well. That's what generals are for. Right. You're meeting people and you get an idea of their taste and seeing what they're interested in making. So maybe you just did a general with a great writer and they who. [00:36:21] Speaker C: Wrote a script kind of similar to the way that you see this. [00:36:25] Speaker A: Yeah, like oh, they really want to do a historical romance and you just option to historical romance. So let's bring it to them sometimes too. When you first get the book before you bring it to the territories, you'll have a writer already attached to it that you think is going to be great and they're already early passionate about it. So sometimes you can just get that done right at the start and then go straight into the writing process which is like the best case scenario. [00:36:51] Speaker B: And I assume like having like a critically acclaimed book or an award winning book, like, I mean both like the best selling and those types of accolades on a cover helps push this through or speed things up or act as some sort of catalyst in this process. [00:37:09] Speaker C: If the book is going viral on. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Book talk, then book talk has gotten. [00:37:14] Speaker C: So many things then the studios are. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Going to for heated rivalry. Yeah, thank you. [00:37:20] Speaker C: But, but like you know that's, that's a huge component of the book industry now, you know and I, I don't know internally how the agencies are either observing that or trying to curate it in some way. But there is a whole social media element to books now, which makes sense because there's a social media element to everything now. But books is a very strong community and you know, okay, there's X amount of impressions per month about heated rivalry. This series is gonna be huge. You know, like we have a built in audience already. It's another way to sort of track the audience before you even adapt it. Which is great but also adds more pressure because book communities can be, you. [00:38:04] Speaker A: Know, especially booktok communities. They're. They're passionate. [00:38:08] Speaker C: Wow. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:09] Speaker B: And it really converted like, I mean obviously I've heard about that show. That's the hockey one, right? [00:38:14] Speaker A: It's the two dudes. Yeah, he did ravelry. I'M pretty sure that was a Book Talk Book. [00:38:19] Speaker C: HBO Max is saying that it's the biggest. Whatever. You know, obviously numbers are tough, but. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Obviously you guys are big fans, right? You're watching everything. [00:38:29] Speaker C: I saw the first episode. [00:38:32] Speaker B: But Book Talk is the, the book section of Tick Tock. [00:38:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:38:38] Speaker B: And, and it's just. [00:38:40] Speaker A: Luke, are you not on Tick Tock? I gave up on Tick Tock. [00:38:46] Speaker B: I, I, but there's a, there's a really, it was, for me, there's a really big, I mean, it's, it's been trending in this direction of just like creators. The, the path from being a creator to a filmmaker is that path is just becoming shorter and shorter. [00:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:39:04] Speaker B: And just seeing content that, that hits on social media is very like, we're talking about critically acclaimed books being a catalyst for production. It's like, you know, stuff that's getting millions of views on Instagram is starting to get an HBO show. I don't know if that's happened yet, but I feel like that's in the near future. [00:39:23] Speaker A: You know, there's definitely been like, Instagram and TikTok story series that have been optioned. I don't know if any of them have been made yet, but I remember getting submitted one and I was like, wait, I have to go watch this on TikTok. And it was just a woman telling like this crazy story over a series of videos. [00:39:42] Speaker C: You get crazy stuff submitted to you. Sometimes that at a production company, like agents, maybe they're geniuses with how they're, you know, or maybe they're just like, you know, this, this has people watching it. Can you, can you do something with this? You know? [00:39:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really just rolling pasta at the wall and hoping it's. [00:40:02] Speaker B: What is the, like, what are they looking for? Like, what is the metric? Is it the numbers? Purely, is it the person? If the video has zero views but like, oh, my God, what a story that just randomly popped up, or is it like a mix of all of those things? Like, what is it that they're looking for? [00:40:19] Speaker A: It's so hard. I think for producers, it's story first. It's always story first. But like, if it's a New York Times bestseller, that's going to make it easier to sell to the studios. And they're the ones with ultimately the money and the opportunity to buy stuff. So it's kind of, if you can have a mix of the two, that's great. But I would still say the story is always the most important part. And then all that stuff just benefits and lifts the books up. I've. I mean, there's a book I was obsessed with that I pushed through with the executives in my company at Netflix, and they unfortunately passed on it because they were like, well, it wasn't published yet. And they wanted to see how the publishing would do and what the book sales would be and if it end up in the New York Times and stuff like that. But that book got a bidding war from three other places. So it's gone, it's done, it's someone else's. And I'm happy it's going to get made. But. [00:41:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, but you always want. [00:41:18] Speaker A: Sometimes they're not willing to take the risk just based on the material. [00:41:22] Speaker C: It's. It's very hard to read what the studios are looking for a lot of the time. Hard, hard. Stop. But also, but I think there's also. It's a balance as a producer, right, because you are story first and the messenger to the writer and really helping, you know, it's so fun to be a producer because you're really helping craft a story from one form to another form in this example, you know, with IP adaptation. But at the same time, you are a salesperson as well. You are, you know, every, in my experience, every few weeks, you know, maybe taking something out, whether it be a TV show or a pitch or a book that you're really excited about to your home studio if you have a deal and if they pass, then all the other places. So it is, it's definitely you're. You're a salesperson at the same time because you're thinking about, you know, are they, are they at all interested in this? Like, we love this story, but maybe they have something that's huge, that's already covers the sort of base that they would never, you know, they're not interested in doing another one of those or whatever it is. So it's about timing. It's about a lot of that. Which makes the job trickier, for sure. [00:42:43] Speaker A: Yeah. There's so many factors that go into it. It's crazy. And it's also hard to predict what the studios are going to want next and what audiences are going to want next. And sometimes it's also the job of the producer to convince the studio this is going to be huge. People passed on heated rivalry. Max took a chance on it, and that was a great chance to take. [00:43:08] Speaker C: And also, and also, like, it depends who's attached, right? Like, it's, it's your job as a producer to figure out, do we want to try and package this with. With a starring talent first before we even take it to the studio, you know, because it's a much. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I was just gonna say why I don't know about you, but I didn't realize how much a job of a producer is being a salesperson until I got to a production company. That is something that film school never performed, prepared me for is how much of it is actually just convincing people to take chances on creatives and on stories. [00:43:40] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's why it is really helpful to work at an agency before you move to a production company. Because you're watching salespeople do it all day, essentially. [00:43:49] Speaker B: Right. Because that sounds like the definition of what, at least in my head, I've never worked at an agency, but I assume that's what agents are doing all day. Right. Is sales. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's sales. And they're like fully sales. They don't have as much of the creative aspect. Some agents do, but mostly they're just focused on the sales. [00:44:07] Speaker B: Before we talk about 21 laps, which I'm super pumped about, I want to just finish up with the CAA section of your life so far and just ask about like in that. I guess it was two years altogether because you said you're there a year and a half on that. [00:44:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it was just over two years. Um, I hit my year at my desk and then a double strike hit. So there was. And it typically you do a year on a desk and either you move to another desk or you leave the company. And there was no leaving in a double strike. [00:44:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Just poured in a storm. Just stay there. Yeah. [00:44:42] Speaker B: And in that, in, in those two years, maybe in that year and a half. Honestly, no. In the entire two and some. What were like the biggest takeaways for. [00:44:52] Speaker A: You probably that this is a business first, entertainment is a business first. And that's a hard pill to swallow. But even though it's business first, everyone is there because they're passionate about it. Everyone is in it because they are a film nerd and. Or a TV nerd. And once you just talk to the TV and film nerd of anyone special studio, exec, agent, producer, doesn't matter. They're going to get excited about what you're excited about. [00:45:28] Speaker C: That's great. Beautiful. And I would even say as the industry shifts to more digital content and things like that, there's going to be people who come in and they're extremely passionate about influencers or tick tockers. And things like that. And it's. I, I do think it's important to, to, you know, as long as there's that genuine passion there, it's important to welcome them into the industry and all that, because things, things are changing so rapidly. Like, I, I, I, I wanted to add, like, because people love going to theaters, you know, like, but, but things are changing and that. And it's scary, but it's. As long as there's that passion there from wherever that is, I think that's where it is. It's very well said, Tessa. [00:46:18] Speaker A: I think that's the challenge of the industry right now, is we're trying to figure out how to tap into that passion in the everyday viewer to get them to go back to the theater. Because people want to go for the popcorn, blockbuster movies, which is great, but how do we get them passionate about the stuff, smaller ones as well, that are just as wonderful to see on a big screen? [00:46:42] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a big question. It is a big, big question. I just saw the Stranger Things finale in theaters. Oh, you saw it in theaters, which was really exciting. And what I'll say is that AMC was not ready for the Stranger Things finale to be in the theater because the lines were insane. Like, bigger than. I mean, because I think it was just like. It was one or two days, right? It was just a couple. [00:47:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Just two days in theaters. [00:47:13] Speaker C: Yeah. And I saw it on that, whatever day that was. I can't even remember. It was all a blur. But it was a really, really exciting experience to see something like that in theaters when there's already that sort of really dedicated fan base who will go and show up. So I, I think it's about, you know, eventizing various things. Right. And that, and that helps you eventize a, a smaller movie in a way, you know, because people are getting more used to going to theaters. And by getting Stranger Things fans into theaters, you're getting, like, TV people into theaters sometimes, which you're bringing a new audience who doesn't usually go into theaters into theaters, and they're like, oh, I like this experience. My one note is that AMC make the experience just much cleaner. You know, these are, these are first timers at the theater. Be on your best, like, overstaff. Get eight people instead of four people working. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Everyone underestimates the Stranger Thing fan base. I went to Chapman, which is where the Duffer brothers went to school. So we had a lot of pride in Stranger Things at Chapman. And I remember the Duffer Brothers were coming to speak, and it was run by the. The university, not by the film school, but they were using the film school theater. And I was on staff at the time as well. And we had the Duffer Brothers in a back office in the. In the school, like, doing press and stuff. And the people started lining up for their Q A four hours in advance. And people were dressed as 11 and had, like, eggo waffles. And, like, people were so pumped for this, and the university was so unprepared. They had no security for the guys either. They had no security set up. [00:49:02] Speaker C: It was just Tessa. It was just you. You're the. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Ended up being me. No joke. It was so funny. In their interview. I love. I love the Duffers. They're hilarious. In the. In the presentation, they said, we don't want to read your fun screenplay. They said that. College kids. [00:49:20] Speaker C: It's good to say that. [00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:21] Speaker A: And some film bros did not take that seriously and were coming around back to sneak them their screenplays. And I had to be the one there that's like, I'm sorry to crush your dreams, but they don't want to read them. [00:49:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:33] Speaker A: So, you know, before I worked for 21 laps, I was actually Duffer Brothers Security. [00:49:37] Speaker C: So that's a great story. That's awesome. [00:49:43] Speaker B: So. So how has it been at 21 laps? And maybe we can talk about that transition from CAA to 21 laps as well, and if your boss helped in any way with that, or if it was more of, like, a Tessa applying to a few things, and maybe this is at the top of the list. [00:50:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, 21 laps was actually my number one company, and I had met one of the executives there, Emily, who also came from the book space, like, months. Months earlier. She. We would send her books all the time, and so I asked her to just go to a coffee with me. Just like you do. You. You network, you meet people. But also, I wanted to find, like, my people in this industry and the companies. I loved their content. I wanted to make sure that I also love the people working there, because you want to be in a collaborative space. And so Emily and I just totally hit it off. She was wonderful, and she knew that I was interested in 21 laps. And so when a desk opened up, oh, my God. I think, like, two weeks after the strikes ended, a desk opened up there, and she called me, and she's like, you want to apply? I was like, please. So I got very lucky. I applied 21 laps, and then I had a couple other companies I was interviewing at as well. But they were my number one. When I started there, I was working for two executives who, like, primarily did tv, but everyone at the company was kind of doing everything, so there was a lot of opportunity. And then after, like, seven months with them, I ended up moving to the partner's desk, and I've been with him ever since. I've been at the company for two years now. [00:51:19] Speaker B: Wow. [00:51:20] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. I love it. And I love coming from just sales at an agency to actually being creative and working on the material. It was everything I wanted to. That was the hard thing about being an IP at CAA for me, is I was. I would get so passionate about these books, and I get so excited about them, and we got a bidding war going, and then we make the deal and it's great, and the author's so happy, and then it goes away. [00:51:46] Speaker C: And then it's gone. [00:51:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's gone. And we would never hear anything. We don't get to read the scripts or the drafts. We. We're fighting for the author to get information. And usually good producers build a relationship with the author outside of their agents. And so they were just talking on their own. And that, like, broke my heart to see all these amazing stories go away and not be able to follow them anymore. So being at 21 laps and actually getting to continue the process, to fight for them and get them and actually work on them has been, like, the most fulfilling part. [00:52:17] Speaker C: Totally. [00:52:18] Speaker B: So now being on the 21 laps side of things, which I know we touched on for a second earlier, but is it now, like, the caas of the world are coming to you with books and you guys are discussing internally, or is, like, you guys are finding your own IP and, like, building from that, or it's both. [00:52:37] Speaker A: It's both. It's both. When you're at a company like 21 Labs, everybody, all hands on deck, is just constantly seeking out material and ip. So we have books incoming. I also do a lot of book tracking on my own, and I'll reach out to agents and be like, when you're going out with this, can I please read it? Or even, like, pretty please, can I read it early? Trying to get things in a little earlier for the company. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I also have, like, built relationships with some, like, publishers and literary managers as well. So I can just go in that angle. If they haven't had. Hadn't brought on, like, a rep like CAA or WME onto the book yet and kind of get an early sneak peek and we obviously don't just do ip. We also have original stuff that we're working on just from meeting with writers and directors and also from them being submitted to us as well. The agencies will just send subs all over town and send scripts all over town, and so sometimes we get to pick up those. But yeah, you never know where you're gonna end up finding something. I mean, we've had, like, people just play a video game and they're like, this is really cool. This would be a great TV show. And they look up, wait a second, it's available. That's awesome. [00:53:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:58] Speaker A: So, yeah, it's. It's fun being able to have that creative freedom. And it's great too, that, like, they really trust everyone at the company to do that. You can be an assistant or an intern, and if you found something great, everyone wants to know about it. So. [00:54:11] Speaker B: So are you. [00:54:11] Speaker A: Are you. [00:54:12] Speaker B: Are you more on, like, the development side of things? Is that. And I assume you guys also have, like, the production piece or more of, like, other aspects of it? Like, are you strictly development? [00:54:23] Speaker A: No, we're everything. I mean. [00:54:24] Speaker B: I mean, you. [00:54:25] Speaker A: I mean. Oh, me particularly, I would say I'm mostly development. I'm very lucky that my direct boss actually is. They are going into production on a TV show and a movie in the next few weeks, which is crazy. So I'm getting to be more on the production side and see. Seeing how that operates from the producer's perspective. I've been the PA and the runner, but now I get to be sitting next to the. [00:54:50] Speaker C: You're like, what do. What do they do all day? You'll get to. [00:54:53] Speaker A: Exactly. I remember having to get them their fancy director's chairs and get their sodas for them. And now I'm like, why did I have to do that? What are you doing? Yeah, turns out a lot. They're doing a lot. No. So it's kind of fun being on being in production as well. But primarily I'm focused on development and helping my boss as well with like, finding new material and reading incoming material while he is producing an. On set, in production. [00:55:21] Speaker C: Right. I think a really valuable part of being an assistant is your boss gets taken in one direction. Right. Because they're. They're needed on set. They're playing a vital role. So you get to kind of fill the other roles to some extent and lean more heavily into maybe the development side because maybe he's not able to read as much when he's on set. So you're reading the stuff that he would usually read or Obviously it's different with every assistant to boss relationship, but I think it's an interesting sort of balance of power there. So if we're going to continue the college metaphor and go, you left CA and now you're back to your freshman year again. You're back to your freshman year at 21. Laughs I'm going to do this whether people like it or not. Going to continue the metaphor. Did you feel like you were truly starting over at this point and you had this sort of like, oh, my God, here's this big company and people are using these words that I do not know because I haven't worked this closely to production and development and things like that. Or were you like, oh, like there's a reason why I'm here and I am ready to hit the ground running. Where did you fall on. On that sort of. [00:56:34] Speaker A: Oh, definitely a mix of the two because again, I had that freshman excitement of I don't know what's going on. But CIA also really prepared me as well. So if we're sticking with your metaphor, I think it's more like transferring to a new school. Like, you get the ropes, you know what you're doing, but there's still a lot to learn and it is a new environment and a. That's always really exciting. And I guess I would be like a junior now. [00:57:06] Speaker C: Love that. [00:57:07] Speaker A: Do I become a freshman again when I'm a creative executive? [00:57:10] Speaker C: Oh, my God, I hope not. [00:57:12] Speaker B: Oh, God. [00:57:16] Speaker C: But I. So I'm curious because, you know, 21 laps is a really interesting company and you've made great films and great TV shows and how has the company changed since you've gotten there, obviously with, you know, Stranger Things ending and all that. And that's one of your biggest shows. So I'm curious how Stranger Things falls into that landscape and how you've seen the company change. [00:57:45] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, I guess it's hard to say. I mean, you work for a talent driven product production company, right? So you understand this a little bit. 21 Labs is director driven by Shawn Levy. And while we produce a lot of the stuff that he is directing, we also produce stuff that he is just producing. He is not directing. Obviously, we want to find the next thing that Sean wants to direct and want to service him as much as possible, but we're also looking for like, the next Stranger Things and the next Duffer Brothers and things like that. So we have, like a lot of flexibility, but always have this North Star of Sean as well, which is really. It's really nice. Especially since he is such a great guy and he is such a talented, creative. Episode 6 of Stranger Things this season was my favorite. He killed it. [00:58:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:58:39] Speaker A: Yeah, he directed that episode. It was great. Yeah. No, it's kind of interesting being at a company that is centered around one town. [00:58:49] Speaker C: I'm curious where Stranger Things sort of falls into your mandate and how has it influenced your mandate in the material you look for? [00:59:00] Speaker A: Oh, that's a great question. Obviously we're not going to take on anything that's too similar to Stranger Things, but we have been looking for our next big, like, world building TV show like that. [00:59:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:15] Speaker A: To do with Netflix because our deal for TV is exclusive with Netflix and they certainly want more of that, like, genre world building stuff from us. Yeah. And that's. I mean, that's our forte. They did it very well the past couple of years. I had nothing to do with Stranger Things, which was great because I got to watch it with everyone else and then go to work and be like, oh, my God. But yeah, so we've been looking for a lot of stuff like that. Like, I think it was in the trades that we actually have a DND TV show that we're in development on. Very Stranger Things esque. I know. And we've got a couple others, fire, fires burning that I don't know if I can talk about. [01:00:01] Speaker C: But of course, only what's in the trades. [01:00:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. [01:00:06] Speaker C: Love that. Well, I'm curious. I feel like we've talked about your parallel path to the places where you've been working and we've really gotten into what goes on at CAA and 21 laps and obviously the Housewives of Orange county highlight. [01:00:25] Speaker A: Definitely. [01:00:26] Speaker C: I'm curious, let's say in five years or in 10 years, what is the dream for you? Where do you see yourself? What is the ideal situation for you? What sort of projects are you making? Where are you at in life? [01:00:41] Speaker A: It's a great question. I want to be creative producing at a production company, maybe 21 labs or one like it. I just want to keep doing this, developing great stories and finding incredible writers. I think that's been my favorite part of working at a production company is actually being able to meet with writers and directors that have so many stories in their heads and some already written down and actually trying to work with them and get them seen and get their material made. I just want to find more voices that I'm passionate about and help elevate them. [01:01:18] Speaker B: I love that. [01:01:19] Speaker C: Fantastic. Well, Tessa, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We really, really appreciate it, and it's good to. You know, I. I know your story, you know, to some extent, but it's really nice to hear it in full breath. It's really, really nice. [01:01:33] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. This is so much fun. [01:01:35] Speaker B: Thank you. Tessa, Did you learn something? Unlike your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050Fest on Instagram and give us five stars, because. [01:01:59] Speaker A: Why not? [01:02:00] Speaker B: Why not subscribe? Why not? You know why not? Okay, bye.