Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The best cinema comes from tension. So you don't. If you're hearing people talk about AI or robots or, you know, algorithms or whatever, you don't just want to hear, like, synth computer music. That's just. That's too smooth. Right? There should be some kind of disagreement between the music and the content, right? Form and content should be. There should be a tussle going on in some sense. So. So, yeah, that's same with B roll, right? Like, if. If you have someone talking about, you know, the government is all corrupt and. And everybody is a jackal, you don't want to just see some boring B roll of, like, a trench coat guy in, like, a garage just agreeing with whatever the person's talking about. The most interesting footage to layer on top of anybody saying anything is something that somehow problematizes or contradicts, provides some tension to what's going on.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld.
[00:00:58] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: 50% business, 50% creative.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new how to.
[00:01:07] Speaker C: This week, we hit the ground running with documentary filmmaker Jacob Hurwitz Goodman. Jacob's eloquence and mastery of the form become clear to us as he draws out the template for molding cohesive stories out of real life. Enjoy.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Been working on it for two or three years. So this is not something you thought of yesterday. What was. What is the premise, if you don't mind me asking?
[00:01:34] Speaker A: It is about. So I'm working with a company called Memory. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of them. They made this film All Light Everywhere with sort of about police body cams and. And yeah, also we're working with Fat City, which is the producers of One Battle after Another. So it's been this kind of like, indie film hero collective producing team behind it. But it's. I've been on this tip since, like 20, mid-2022.
And it's about.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: The rationalists who believe that the world is about to end from artificial intelligence, but they're also sort of the ones who caused the AI boom at the same time.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: Oh, wow.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: I'm sure you're interesting characters. Yeah. Little sketches of this. They've been.
[00:02:20] Speaker C: They've been.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: They've been breaking into mainstream consciousness quite a bit over the past year or so. But, yeah, I've been, like, talking with them and hanging out with them and.
[00:02:28] Speaker C: So figuring it out what is. And I know you're doing a whole documentary on this, so you're probably, you know, thinking about it 24 7. But what is, what's the timeline on the Rationalists, if you don't mind my asking? Like, what. When did they sort of emerge and.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, yeah, the Rationalists sort of their, their, their cloud, the sort of archetypical narrative of them. The official version is that they came out of this group from the late 80s and early 90s called the extropians. And the Extropians were these like intense techno libertarian transhumanists who were sort of so excited about computers that they were like, okay, the singularity is coming.
We want to get there as soon as possible. We want to upload our minds to machines. We never want to die. They invested a ton of money into like cryonics and sort of freezing their bodies. So we visited one of their cryonic facilities in Arizona where there are like hundreds of corpses and huge metal tubes floating around. So it was this like extreme techno optimist, highly ideological concentration of people, mostly based in California in the 90s.
And the Rationalists sort of emerged from there into the early 2000s when their leader, this guy named Eliezer Yudkowski, had this like apocalyptic revelation where he was like, oh, if we get what we want and a godlike super intelligence emerges into the world, the first thing it's going to do is kill us all. And he has all of these like rigorous proofs and like philosophical treatises about this. And he also wrote the most popular Harry Potter fanfiction on the Internet called Harry Potter.
[00:04:08] Speaker C: And the kind of checks out a little bit.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Yeah, very.
[00:04:10] Speaker C: It's got the imagination, you know.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah, the vibes are all there. And that just attracted tons of young people throughout the 2000s and 2010s to go live in Berkeley basically and cluster around.
[00:04:22] Speaker C: I'm sure, I'm sure social media has even, you know, exponentially compounded that.
[00:04:28] Speaker A: Right.
They're very active on Twitter, but their main forum are these, these kind of like essay style web communities, like Less Wrong and Slate Star Codex and sort of lesser known sandboxes on the Internet. So they're, they're, yes, they're active on social, the mainstream social media, but they have their own kind of like beacons online that they've used to attract people.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: And, and so where do you fit into all this? Are they welcoming? Are they like, yeah, come in with the camera and like film us like, or are you also one of them and you're like, like, I believe this.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: No, I'm very much an outsider. I was invited, I was tipped off to the story by someone from within that world. Because I've been making films, doc, especially documentaries and essay stuff about the tech world for a long time.
And someone was like, you have to check this out. There's some weird dark stuff happening and also some interesting ideas floating around this community. And so I started reaching out to people and in 2022 that was pretty easy.
OpenAI hadn't really come out of the closet yet and there hadn't been any of the series of murders that have happened from this sort of community yet.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: So people were very willing to talk.
But in, starting in 2023, 2024, AI got huge. People really started freaking out and there was some, there was a bunch of violence there that happened. And so they've, they've become a lot. It's become a lot harder to have access. But I've been me and you know, thank God I have just an excellent producing team behind me. We've been able to just kind of spend time chiseling away at this very, very, very slowly building trust, keeping lines of communication open with people. So this last trip to San Francisco was actually great. We were like, yeah, invited in in a way that it's been a bit harder to have been in the past.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: How much are you thinking about the risk going into a situation like that?
[00:06:28] Speaker A: The risk of AI or the risk.
[00:06:29] Speaker C: Or the risk. I mean, you're mentioning some, some violence. Yeah, some violence and some. You know, it seems like a pretty tight knit community. And you know, while you're being welcomed in, obviously there's inherent risk. Right.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: I've very not focused on it. I mean the, the people who have been violent are kind of this much more extreme and desperate offshoot. Like a splinter group from the Rationalists.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Mm. Mm.
[00:06:53] Speaker A: They. I've had a little bit of contact with them, but mostly it's been with the rationalists themselves who are very peaceful.
[00:06:59] Speaker C: Got it.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Just like earnest nerds.
[00:07:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:07:04] Speaker C: It's. They're kind of in a way not self contradicting, but it's, it's this like, you know, we're, we're obsessed with this idea and we like it kind of, but also we're super scared of it at the same time. You know, like it's, it's a, it's an interesting subject for documentary.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Right, exactly. The inner contradictions are what make it so interesting. That's exactly right. And it's, I think what has driven a lot of them off the edge. It's these kind of in irreconcilable Contradictions between being singularians, which means that they want, they can't wait for the singularity. They can't wait for the AI to come and end death, because their biggest enemy is death. They want to become immortal and they think technology can get us there. And at the same time deeply fearing that AI is going to kill everybody.
[00:07:53] Speaker C: Right, right, right. Because there's, there's intrinsic human fear, right, that, that you're going to, you can't avoid the fear of, of death. So it's, it, it's interesting. It's very interesting.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: It's got all the big, all the big questions. I love it. Yeah.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: So when you're going into a space like a community, how do you.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: Pick people from there? Like, how are you picking subjects?
[00:08:17] Speaker C: How does that work?
[00:08:18] Speaker B: How do those communications conversations work, if that makes sense.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: It's very different for every project.
Some communities are more physical, so you just have to go to a place and just start meeting people. That's a lot harder with the rationalists, who are mostly online communities, so somewhat decentralized. But that also makes it easy to like, just do a bunch of research and reading and take notes and start reaching out to people through the Internet. So, yeah, with this one, it's been, it was like a year or more of just reading a ton of mind boggling stuff and just kind of frying my brain on all the rationalist writing that existed online and slowly emailing people and then having. I'll be like, hey, can we have a zoom call? I'd like to tell you a little bit about this project and get your thoughts on it and like invite feedback, like, what should our film be about? What should we focus on? What are your recommendations and just start bringing people in as collaborators, basically?
[00:09:15] Speaker C: Yeah, that was, that was going to be my next question about, you know, sort of crafting the narrative. How early in the gathering information process are you thinking about potential narrative for the documentary? Or are you still just in the phase of gathering as many perspectives as possible and then you craft it sort of after using footage?
[00:09:34] Speaker A: I mean, if it were up to me completely, if I was the king of the universe, I would think about narrative until the whole thing was shot. And you know, that's a bit of a, that's, that's a bit counterintuitive, especially if you're coming from scripted film. But documentary, it's like you find the story, the story kind of emerges and you work with it and there's some judo going on where like energy is coming at you and you have to Kind of like bend and shape things to will and absorb it in weird ways. And that's kind of what I love about working in that space.
But we were, because I brought on memory and my producer, Riel Roche Dector, pretty early on in the process, he was immediately like, oh, there's something here that the streamers could very likely be interested in, especially because it has this true crime angle. So we were pitching like immediately like way faster than I'm used to in this process.
Pretty much, yeah. Before we had shot anything, I was in the room with like every major streamer. And so then you have to start thinking about narrative in this kind of artificial way really early where you're like, well, here's where it's going to start and here's where it's going to go. And then even here's where it's going to end. Which to me just feels.
[00:10:42] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like a regular pitch, you know, it's like a scripted pitch almost.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very. They want that, they want that. And, and you know, that's not coming up. Falling in love with documentary in college, that was not the ideal of the art form that I learned, which is that you really are kind of there excavating and moving in real time with the story as it happens.
And I think the documentary industry has, as the, as money has flooded into it over the past decade or two become weirdly, even as it's become much more well funded, it's become much more risk averse. And maybe that's not weird because when you're dumping a million dollars into a documentary rather than just like 50,000, which is what they used to cost, or 100,000, then you're going to want to know what the ending is going into it.
So yeah, that's been a big part of it.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: So how do you go about pitching that then? Are you just guessing? Are you kind of like, okay, what does this big streamer want usually with their endings? And basing it off of that, you're.
[00:11:47] Speaker C: Working with your producers, I would assume, pretty heavily on that part.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Yes, that's right. I mean, I, you know, typically it'll be like I write some kind of three or four page document that's like, here's a. Basically like treating it like the outline of a novel or something like that. And then we'll go back and forth and producers will be like, well, this changed this. This is. They don't need to know this. You know, it's always tailored to every individual executive or, or you know, producer that you're talking to at these places, you know, what they. What kind of things they like. So you are tailoring it a little bit while it, you know, rigorously trying to stay true to the project itself and to. To not promise anything that you don't want to work on for the next two or three years. Basically.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: So it's a balancing act. It's. It's quite tough. It's been a learning process for me. I've usually worked in much more subterranean spaces.
[00:12:43] Speaker C: You did a bunch of research, kind of came up with the concept of the documentary or the subject and, you know. And at what point did you bring the producers on?
[00:12:56] Speaker A: I did a bit of research and brought on a friend of mine who's a producer, much more kind of like art and music world person that I knew who she had. She had never produced a feature film before named Megan.
And I had simultaneously, not long before this, I had released a film on a platform called Dis Art, and it's called Syzygy. It's a sort of like lengthy video essay about the history of Chuck E. Cheese and private equity in the United States. And.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: This, this production company, Memory, whose work I had followed for quite some time, they had released some films that I really loved and had seen at festivals and other places.
And the founder of that company kind of like posted about Syzygy on social media and I was like, oh, okay, let me. So I sent a DM on Instagram and we set up a time to talk and I told him about this new story I was looking into and he was like, let's go. And so we've been just working very closely together on this thing for the past three or so years.
And then he. It's sort of like, this is one thing I'm. I've been learning too, is that these things are like Russian nesting dolls, which is why you see so names at the beginning and ends of films. It's like he. Okay, so I brought on him.
He then brought on this company called Fat City, which I mentioned that, you know, it's. They just made this film. If I had legs, I'd kick you. They produced Paul Thomas Anderson's film. So they're like sort of heroes of the. The indie to medium size indie film world.
[00:14:32] Speaker C: Yeah, right.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Licorice pizza.
So. So they were really interested.
I think this was one of the first docs that they had explored looking at. So they came on board, they were like the second Russian doll. And then they were like, okay, we have this first look deal with Anonymous Content, which is a bigger to medium sized studio and management company and they may have made films and docs for decades. They made Being John Malkovich is what I always like to brag about films.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: So Fat City brought us to them and they were on board.
So then they were like the third, fourth, whatever, Matrioshka dollar. They gave us a little bit of development funding so we could actually start shooting this thing. Yeah, so we started shooting at that point and then Anonymous then is the one who brought us into the room with hbo, Netflix, Amazon, whatever, Apple tv, all the big ones. So that was, that was that process. And since then we didn't end up going with a large streamer, we ended up getting private financing which is just, just coming through now. So it was like a process of like, yeah, a year and a half, two years of pitching, hitting a wall, huge streamers, sort of not knowing quite what to do with a project like this. Being a bit risk averse to it, of course. Also the fact that I'm not like a true crime filmmaker, that I have a sort of a bit of a more idiosyncratic approach to what I want to do. I think they were like, well, if we want to tell this story, we're going to get one of the people who've made a billion anonymous true crime documentaries.
You know, just kind of like flash across your screen, like slop.
[00:16:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I would also say instinctually in my mind I'm like the, the actual subject of the documentary is, is a controversial topic these days, you know, especially with a lot of the big streamers being associated with tech and AI and all that or having strong feelings or in legal battles with AI company. Like there's so much going on that it, it also feels like that's, that's part of the risk aversion too.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: It's not just part of the risk aversion, it's like 80% of the risk aversion. I've been, I've been shown emails that I wasn't supposed to have seen that were like, well, we're a little nervous about this project because, you know, we're, you know, we don't want such and such company to get alienated by this and they're doing AI and I'm like, okay, it's just like straightforward and all.
[00:16:59] Speaker C: Their advertisers and everything. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, exactly.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: But there's also an element of some of the people that have been committing the murders are trans.
And so that just like adds to like, even if they were Slightly wanting to come on board. It's like, well, we can't.
[00:17:16] Speaker C: Let's throw in another controversial something else.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: That we just would have no interest in. The third rail. Touching it. Yeah, it's. It's kind of crazy.
[00:17:26] Speaker C: Oh my God. But does, I mean, does that, does that excite you more as a filmmaker?
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Like.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: No, not that.
[00:17:34] Speaker C: Okay, sure. But right.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: That part I wish. I wish. I don't. Well, you know, whatever. I can't wish anything but.
[00:17:41] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: It's, it's. That has been really tricky. And trying to figure out how to tell that story in this current political environment which is so hostile to trans people is.
[00:17:51] Speaker C: Yeah, of course I, I think it was more so just think there's. The idea of risk just keeps coming back to my mind. Not even risk as far as the people who, you know, the potential, potential streaming partners, but risk on, on your end of. Just like, this is a very, It's a very bold topic that I feel like you, obviously you, you didn't go into it thinking like, you know, it. There's all this violence attached to it, whatever, but you're, you're kind of discovering these things and you're, you know, more things are coming out as you're shooting it. Right?
[00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I, I don't know if risk itself is what attracted me, but I think maybe it's probably more like correlation than causation. Like the risk doesn't cause me to be interested, but somehow what I'm interested in tends to be more risky just because I find.
[00:18:41] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: That's somehow correlated with what I find more interesting.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: I think that can be tough in a, In a, you know.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Corporate captured Hollywood film industry, which, you know, we're speaking, what, two days after the, this insane announcement, Netflix buying up Warner Brothers. It's just going to get more intensified, all that stuff. So. Yeah.
[00:19:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: I don't know. I think you guys kind of, from what I understand of your podcast, you're very focused on the relationship between like the financial side and the art side. And I wonder if you. Have you done an episode yet about that merger that just went through?
[00:19:20] Speaker C: No, we have not.
We definitely like are in tune with everything that's going on. I think it. With our podcast, I do think that we try to be inherently optimistic about the industry.
We're catering to a film school age audience who are just see the industry above them and it's daunting, obviously hard to get jobs as hard as ever.
So we try to, in a way provide a pathway towards, you know, those entry level positions and talking with people who have experience and, you know, if there's any sort of like tangible stuff that we can garner from these conversations. So I think it makes it especially challenging but exciting to be able to talk about those things and say like, you know, where do we go from there?
[00:20:18] Speaker A: That's cool. I like that. I appreciate that we try to be optimistic.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: I'll also say, just so that we're not getting too doomer and I'll kind of. I'll try to fit in with the. With the. With the bros on the podcast is I.
[00:20:34] Speaker A: The risk stuff, while it can be really challenging in terms of being in a pitch room and pitching to people who are themselves taking risks when they move your project forward, it also attracts wonderful collaborators and partnerships. And the stuff, you know, being interested in riskier, perhaps edgier topics have gotten me to be able to work with some of the most incredible people that I could possibly have worked with. And so there's that. I don't know. It's certainly. I would just say it's not all downside. It's like great to be interested in stuff and that find that there are other people who are incredible producers and creatives and filmmakers who are attracted to that kind of stuff as well. And then you find a community basically, which is honestly what it really is about.
[00:21:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Where did the love or passion or both for documentary come from for you?
[00:21:27] Speaker A: I went to the University of Chicago and I.
They don't have a film production track at UChicago, but I knew I wanted to be a filmmaker. I had been making films since middle school with my classmates and I thought I wanted to be, you know, purely scripted, which narrative stuff is still what I love doing as well. I just made a feature narrative, like scripted film, wrote and directed it, but it's neither here nor there. I went to UChicago and they had one documentary production course at UChicago and it was intro. Sorry. They had one film production course and it was intro to documentary film production. It was the only place on campus where they would put a camera in your hands and like, teach you how to, you know, use a microphone and whatever. And it was taught by this wonderful documentary veteran of the Chicago School of Documentary Filmmaking associated with Kartemkin Films.
Her name is Judy Hoffman. And the first day of class, we sat down in a dark room around a table and the lights were off and there was a screen at the head of the table and a projector just started playing. The Film Salesman by the Maisels Brothers.
And I don't know if you guys have ever seen that or other Maisel's Brothers films, but it's from the mid-60s, I want to say early to mid-60s. It's about a group of Bible salesmen traveling across the United States.
And it's like, just bewitching. And it was one of the most haunting, wonderful films that I had ever seen. And I realized at that moment I was like, oh, documentary is not just sitting people down and having interviews and filming Hackney B roll around. That it's like poetic and strange and ambiguous and.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: Can be deeply disturbing in very subtle ways, in ways that I love about all film, basically.
And so, yeah, that was the moment where I was like, I could do this and I want to do this, and it's really cheap to do this. So it seems like a viable path.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: Do you think that documentary is like, in a way, a very pure form of cinema, of the art form?
[00:23:35] Speaker A: I think that there have been people who have conceived it that way in its history.
I don't think so. I think.
I think documentary is. Is just as subjective and manipulated and, you know, in many ways as script.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: The point of view, right, that you.
Ideally, in my. In my view, a great documentary has a really strong director point of view.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Certainly it has a strong director point of view. And it also, you know, I mean, it does. The writing doesn't really happen on the forefront as it does with scripted film. It happens in the editing room, but it's still written and it's still like, pulling moments, selecting moments that will have a, you know, calculated impact in any one given time. But I do think that it has something that's different from scripted film. It does.
It is different somehow. And how. How it's different, I think is one of the most interesting questions. Because that is a fluid line that changes all the time, you know, I mean, you have documentaries that include tons of. Of reenactment footage or even sometimes scripted faked interviews or like, you know, interviews where someone is lying to someone else and then that leads you down a rabbit hole. So there's just tons of untruth. And yeah, I'll say. Another film that I watched around that time in college was the film Lessons of Darkness by Werner Herzog.
And that is a film in which Herzog, in the, I want to say, early 90s, took a helicopter to Kuwait just after Iraq had bombed Kuwait, and just filmed this entrancing, just like deeply moving, very strange footage of this landscape with just Fires and oil fields with like oil shooting fire 100ft up into the air and like people wandering around holding skulls and no context, no interviews and just Herzog's voiceover reading from like the Tibetan Book of the Dead and then occasionally making up fact, like making up lies about what we're seeing on screen.
And that too was like, okay, documentary and descriptive film, you know, there's the differences. Is very hazy in a way that really attracted me.
[00:25:47] Speaker C: Yeah, it's blurred. It's blurred a lot of the time. I love that. And I love what you said earlier too, about being able to get a bunch of information and a bunch of voices and being able to craft it yourself after the fact. I do think that's a very pure way of going about it. And it's one of the reasons why I love podcasts too. Being able to.
I love editing podcasts because in the edit you're able to sort of craft an arc and a narrative after the fact. Right. By having a pure conversation that goes on and being able to. I don't know, there's just something so attractive to me about being able to craft an arc from a conversation or a bunch of stuff.
There's no question there. I just think that's cool.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think so too. It's really fun. It's sort of. It's just like different creative impulses, you know, like documentary to me feels more like working with clay or something like that where you're given this kind of lump of stuff, it's in whatever shape, and then you get to kind of viscerally play with it until something feels right and then that might lead you to something else that feels right. And scripted film is a little bit more like.
I don't know what, what the opposite of working with clay is like 3D printing or something where you really start with like the.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: If it goes well.
[00:27:04] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Or. Yeah, I mean, it's always a mix of both. You know, Scripted filmmaking also has that clay where you're. You are left with a bunch of stuff and shapes that you didn't exactly play plan for and you still have to work with it, but.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: And there is that, that sense of clay when you're working with an actor, you know, and there's a line that you're trying to add some sense of or specific or intentional meaning to. And it's like you can have a conversation with someone rather in documentary, I assume it's more of like, how am I going to.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: Ask this certain question to this certain person, you know, because you don't know what they're going to say. Maybe you have a sense of what they're going to say.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: But yeah, I mean, I think in documentary you get surprised by your. What's happening in front of the camera. Ideally maybe a little bit more so than in scripted film.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: That's kind of what you want though, right? Like you're, you're kind of pushing for those moments of like surprise.
[00:28:00] Speaker A: That's the best game. And it wakes you up as a filmmaker. People are just saying exactly what you think they're gonna say. It can be a bit boring. But yeah, if someone pushes back or says something completely out of character, then you're like, okay, there's.
We just got something.
[00:28:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:18] Speaker C: I watched the Robert Durst documentaries for the first time last year and just, I mean when he full on admits that he did it, it's like the greatest thing.
It's crazy, but it's one of those like, you know, it's one of those moments that's the camera kept running and the mic kept running or whatever and it just happened, you know?
[00:28:38] Speaker A: I know. Yeah.
I love that, that, what is that called? The Curse? No, the jinx. I love the jinx.
[00:28:44] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: Really? It's one of my favorite things that's made.
[00:28:47] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, me too.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: So what, what was that first documentary, that production like for you, if you can. Was it in that class? Did you guys have an assignment to like go off and, and shoot something?
[00:29:01] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean the first documentary I ever made, it's part of my family lore. It was called the Hurwitz Goodman family documentary.
[00:29:08] Speaker C: Nice.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: 12 years old and it's quite poignant and weird to watch it now. But yes, the first production with the team was in that class. Basically that class worked such that every student came to the semester with a pitch of an idea of a short documentary they wanted to direct.
And the class voted basically on the top three or four and those. Then the class would divide up into crews to make those top three or four. So this is very democratic process and my pitch was one as one of the top three or four. So I got to have like a crew of three or four people working with me, which was the first time I'd had that. And yeah, we went out and made a semester long film about this building on the UChicago campus called the Accelerator building, which is where Enrico Fermi had the first ever.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: It was some kind of nuclear reaction that took place that allowed for the creation of nuclear power and nuclear bombs. And it was this very Weird mysterious building, no signs on the outside of it. You went inside and it was just. There was just like a huge hole in the ground where there was all this mysterious giant, gigantic machines and equipment and coils of wire and like weird stuff everywhere. And it just. I had worked that summer as a Jimmy John's delivery guy delivering subs around Hyde park, which is Chicago neighborhood on bike. So I was a bike delivery guy and they would sometimes order sandwiches in the accelerator building. And the first time I went in there, I was like, what the fuck is this place? So then I pitched that to the class. I was like, I was a, I was a sandwich delivery guy and there's a weird ass building that nobody knows on campus. So let's just go hang out there and talk to everybody who will talk to us. So yeah, that was great.
[00:30:50] Speaker C: Did you shoot any like reenactment footage of you on the bike? I'm imagining like a POV of you on the bike with the Jimmy John's riding there for the first time.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: We didn't.
[00:30:59] Speaker C: Okay, well, you missed out.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: So yeah, that would, so that's, that's a, that's a nuanced idea for, for a college student. I was just like, let me. We're just going to go in there and talk to as many weird characters as we'll talk to us. And a lot of them were interested in talking to us and there were some. There was a scientist there who was probably in his late 80s, early 90s who had been there working on that nuclear reaction. And he talked to us and it was incredible. I was just couldn't believe that the stories that people had to tell and the strange kind of like ghostly forgotten characters that inhabited this building that had kind of aged out of being on the cutting edge of science. So there was this melancholy to the whole thing.
Wow, that was fascinating to me.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: With documentary, it's again mentioning the actors versus real people thing of like, with an actor you can kind of walk up to them and hand them a script and say, okay, let's, let's do this, you know, with a real person. You. I don't know. At least from my experience, it seems that it's incredibly beneficial to spend time in a similar setting or space with these people. Not necessarily like interacting with them maybe just that they see you there and you kind of establish yourself as like you're there. You know, I guess the opposite of that is like showing up with a camera and being like, can we interview you? You know, instead it's like you're There. And then you slowly start to meet them and have conversation.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: And it's a very natural flow.
[00:32:22] Speaker B: Flow into. Were you doing that from the beginning or was it just like, we're students, we have this class and we want to do this story and we'd love to interview you.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: I think it was.
I'm trying to remember, for that accelerator Building one. It's a long time ago, but then I guess.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: And maybe it's a. Maybe it's a broader question.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I think I always prioritize going and meeting someone first if we can do it. And these days that. That often just means a zoom meeting.
But I try to have a really lengthy conversation where I kind of, like, show who I am and, like, illustrate what my interests are and what my sort of, like, what I'm. Where my curiosity lies, and then let them talk so that I get to know them a little bit. That really helps lay the groundwork for a good interview. But, yeah, when possible, I think it's crucial to go to an actual space first and spend time in person with people, being around people, at least shake someone's hand without having a camera anywhere in sight.
Before you start getting into filming stuff.
[00:33:25] Speaker C: People are naturally, like, not comfortable on camera.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: You know, some people. Yeah, some people are. And those are. Or they love it in your documentary.
[00:33:35] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: There are real hams in this world.
[00:33:40] Speaker C: They're like, where's the camera? Like, just bring it out already.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That was one of the things we learned from Judy hoffman's class at UChicago. It's documentary. Just like many. Any type of thing, film is, you know, 80% casting. It's like you figure out who your main characters are first, and then you see where that leads you.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: What are some qualities to look for?
[00:34:03] Speaker A: I mean, people who have a desire to tell their story, people who, like, are motivated to want to be a part of your film. And, you know, even if that's in a way, or especially if that's in a way that's different from your own motivations.
Like, you should have, in my opinion, you should have, in some sense, cross purposes with the people that you're filming.
Otherwise you're just making, you know, like, parrot propaganda for whatever their pet issue is or their own career or whatever you want to. You want to see something in them that. That they're trying to hide, and they want to see something in you that they're trying to get. And those two energy streams create something generative and productive, I think.
[00:34:49] Speaker C: How do you create, like a.
How do you Create a safe space on set, especially if they're talking about things that are specifically emotional or traumatic.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: I don't know if I have a conscious strategy for this. I think it's just how I interact with people. I am. I, you know, making eye contact, really listening, being interested in what they have to say. If you're just. If you have those qualities, if you have. If you have the ability to do that, then people will be a lot more naturally ready to open up to you. And beyond that, it's different every time.
[00:35:31] Speaker B: Do you. Do you prefer to have subjects look at you directly or into the lens?
[00:35:39] Speaker A: I prefer to have them look at me. And sometimes we have.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: Set up situations where it's both. Where we've used the interrotron. I don't know if you know about that.
[00:35:50] Speaker B: So.
[00:35:50] Speaker A: Do you know the filmmaker Errol Morris.
[00:35:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:53] Speaker A: Made the Thin Blue Line and sort of one of the. One of the key, kind of like documentary filmmakers of the late 20th century moving through to today. But he invented something called the interrotron, which was a system of like videos and mirrors and screens that allowed the person to be looking directly at in your eyes, which were that which were over the lens itself so that they could be making eye contact with the director while making eye contact with the audience at the same time.
It's quite brilliant. And it's been adapted for low budget filmmaking and I've used it a few times, including on this project.
[00:36:28] Speaker C: Well, that's so interesting. Wow.
[00:36:31] Speaker B: What is the. What is like the rig.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: It's a little bit like a.
What is it called? Where a politician can look at like.
[00:36:41] Speaker C: I know exactly what you're talking about. Where they're reading off of the thing. But it's also the camera.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: The teleprompter. Yeah, the teleprompter. Words are. It's sort of like it's projected on a piece of glass that is situated at an angle right in front of the lens such that the person looking at it from outside is seeing the words, but the camera can't see the words. So the person is looking at the words but looking through the words at the camera. So it's kind of. It uses that kind of.
[00:37:10] Speaker C: Yeah, seems like something that the. Seems like something that the rationalists would love.
[00:37:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the rationalist. Barack Obama, everybody.
[00:37:18] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:21] Speaker C: The podcast is slowly turning into like a sort of conspiratorial 50 50.
I'm curious, what is a moment when you've been making a documentary? If you want to take us through it, where there's been a left turn and it's really exciting and you get to then go down that rabbit hole when someone has revealed something or you know, brought something up that was not in your plan or your pitch for the documentary. And you've had to really sort of call an audible and go down that rabbit hole.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, this one that I'm working on now is the closest example of that.
Typically I'm not doing stuff like you know, that's, that's so dependent on sort of weird turns of events in the moment. They're more like character studies or studies of subcultures or communities.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:15] Speaker A: But in this one, you know, after we started making it.
[00:38:20] Speaker A: A group of people that had been ambiently a part of the story went off on a, on a cross country murder spree.
And then that opened up a bunch of, yeah, crazy stuff that we weren't expecting but that we had access to.
And so. Yeah, that's probably the clearest example.
[00:38:38] Speaker C: That's. Yeah, that's a great example. That is crazy.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not usually, I'm not, I don't typically work in like the crime or like, you know, dastardly situation genre, like not doing the jinx. But yeah, this time it has, it has taken a very, very weird turn.
[00:38:57] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. I'm curious because, so you mentioned right away the accelerator building and you mentioned the sort of emotional quality of the documentary and you, you, you use the word melancholy and I'm curious in your documentaries at what point you start understanding the tone of the documentary with, with the accelerator building. I'm sensing that, you know, the melancholy was probably portrayed in the music, in the, the pacing of things. At what point are you thinking about stylistically how the documentary is going to look?
Those sort of formal elements that, that convey the tone?
[00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, again, typically this would be something I would find both during the shoot and during the edit. But when you're pitching it, you have to, you have to outline these things and understand them a little bit more clearly going in, which has been actually good and like how helpful kind of object lesson. But yeah, for this one, it was during that planning the pitches where I was forced to kind of write out a whole section about what the tone would be. And it was kind of like, we're gonna film it in this way. That's a bit paranoid. That's a bit, you know, automated a little bit with like feeling like you're inside of a computer, feeling like you're surrounded by systems in some way. And there's this kind of like weird.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: Ambient mystery, oppressive mystery surrounding you. And so that was what the intention that we had going in. And then you, you set up interviews and you set up shoots to go along with that tone. And then you end up finding a different tone and it slowly evolves throughout the process. And then in the edit is really where the tone kind of situates itself. And honestly, even in the edit you play, you go through various tones. And one edit might have like six or seven different tones throughout the length of the film.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: And you have to get disciplined and kind of like hone in on one and make it more of a motif that dictates what the rest of it is going to be.
[00:40:55] Speaker C: Yeah. And also using music to help transition tone from one scene to another. Right.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: The music is such a. It's like one of the biggest.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:04] Speaker C: I mean you're a big music guy. You. You direct music videos. Music music. And I feel like one of the things that I wrote down in my research of you, my brief research was just that I see so much connection between music and film and visuals with you.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean that's. I grew up in, in a, in a social circle in metro Detroit that was like.
For some reason there were a bunch of teenagers around me that were really into music, like cutting edge, like deeply experimental avant garde, like heavy harsh noise music and like Detroit electronic underground music. And introducing me to like some of the craziest music around the world and having insane basement shows and people's parents houses and stuff like that, and being in bands whose music I still honestly sometimes listen to these days, like really insanely talented people.
And I always, I think, felt I didn't really have the, the discipline or the desire or the talent or whatever you want to call it to do music myself. But I always felt a little bit of jealousy where I was like this feeling just like working with pure energy and just kind of like working with pure. Kind of like expressing non verbal emotions is something I want to do and it's something that. It's sort of the high aspiration. So yeah, I've gravitated towards music. I mean making music videos. Doing a web series called Far Off Sounds, which is sort of a short documentary web series that I've been working on for the past decade or more about like obscure ecstatic musical experiences around the world.
It's always been interesting. But I think in any film or project that I work on there, the goal is always to have a sense of the. Ineffable of like, why does this work?
You can't really say it. Like there's. There's not always words to say why something works. Those are my favorite types of films to watch. And that is, I think, a quality of music that is, you know, what makes totally, totally.
[00:43:04] Speaker C: It hits like below. Like it's lower brain waves, you know, that aren't super conscious. It's definitely goes right into the subconscious.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: Do you work with a composer that you love? Like, or I guess that that also crosses over into crew as well. If, like, are you working with your friends for all these projects?
[00:43:26] Speaker A: No, there's different people every time. I mean, there's one. For my video essay work, I often like to work with this guy named Daniel Bachmann, who is just an incredible. He, I guess, you know, he's labeled by like NPR or whatever as a primitive guitarist. Primitive American guitarist. He does like, wow. He just like makes sounds on a guitar that is kind of primitive. Primitive, yeah.
[00:43:48] Speaker C: There's no other word. That's amazing.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: There's no other word. I don't know if he identifies that way, but he made the score for the New York Times.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: Film that I did and for Syzygy, the one that I mentioned before about Chuck E. Cheese. And one thing I really love about his music is it's like. I mean, it's just beautiful. It's evocative and haunting and it leaves a lot of space. But you can feel the human touch on it. You can feel the hands moving around and the arm muscles moving and you can kind of like. It's like very embodied, you know, in a way that is a counterpoint to these high tech stories that I'm talking about that are so virtualized, you know, So I feel like it's grounding and that's. Yeah, that's what I love to work with.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: You have a. You have a way with words, man.
[00:44:30] Speaker C: I know.
[00:44:30] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:44:31] Speaker C: I keep writing down. That's why I say that. It's like you said. You said obscure, ecstatic musical experiences heard around the world.
[00:44:38] Speaker B: But it all makes sense. Like I'm hearing the big words. I'm like, am I going to understand this? And then I do.
[00:44:43] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It's subconscious. It's not.
[00:44:46] Speaker B: It's subcon.
[00:44:47] Speaker A: Yeah, right, right. You can't put your finger on why it works, but it does.
[00:44:50] Speaker C: The primitive to be labeled by NPR is primitive. That must. I wish I could put that in my answer and bio.
[00:44:57] Speaker B: That's.
[00:44:57] Speaker C: That's pretty amazing.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: He's. He's the best. And I, this is something I honestly even have, you know, I can get into creative fights with, with collaborators about this where it's like, I really think the best cinema comes from tension. So you don't, if you're hearing people talk about AI or robots or, you know, algorithms or whatever, you don't just want to hear like synth computer music that's just, that's too smooth. Right. There should be some kind of disagreement between the music and the content. Right. Form and content should be. There should be a tussle going on in some sense.
[00:45:34] Speaker C: It makes it so much more interesting rather than just doing it completely on the nose. With computer, you don't want to be hearing what you're seeing.
[00:45:42] Speaker A: No, and same with B roll, right? Like if, if you have someone talking about, you know, the government is all corrupt and everybody is a fucking jackal, you don't want to just see some boring B roll of like a trench coat guy in like a garage just agreeing with whatever the person's talking about. The most interesting footage to layer on top of anybody saying anything is something that somehow problematizes or contradicts. Yeah, contradicts. Yeah. Or makes it. Makes it.
Yeah, it makes it weird, like provide some tension to what's going on.
[00:46:15] Speaker C: And, and as we spoke about in the beginning of the interview, that sort of self contradiction is, is even within your subjects sometimes, right?
[00:46:24] Speaker A: Contradiction. It's what we're all made of.
[00:46:27] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: We talk a lot about creative voice on here and just, I guess, artistic voice as well.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: It's the same thing.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: But do you feel that you have found your voice as an artist through documentary or more through narrative? Or is it kind of a mix of both?
[00:46:44] Speaker A: It's a huge interplay. And honestly, commercial work has played a big role in that because there's a pressure cooker in doing commercials where you're forced to be creative and to be working really fast and to find novel ways of telling stories. That has informed a lot of my more, you know, non commercial, you might say, creative work. So the use of my own voice for voiceover is never something that I thought I would have wanted to do when I started, when I moved to L. A, you know, to make films. And it was through doing commercial work where I realized, okay, I have kind of a knack for this. People really like it and it's, it's good for cutting through bullshit and like telling a story straight in some ways when that's appropriate.
And so I've started using that a lot more in my documentary Work. And then, you know, I just. As I mentioned, I made this scripted film. We're just wrapped. You know, it's in. It's in post production now. It's called Muscle beach, and it's about a bodybuilder looking for his missing best friend on.
Throughout the course of one day in Venice, California. Sort of like came from a short documentary. I made a short doc for Hakai magazine about these bodybuilders at Muscle beach in Venice, California.
And then that turned into an idea for a feature film. And so it's been a collaboration with these bodybuilders and Jack Lawrence Meyer, who I think, you know, you guys talked.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: To.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: Was a producer on that film.
And that one too, is sort of like we were filming. We were using these documentary techniques, using a lot of kind of street casting and talking to real people while using extremely traditional cinematic techniques as well for smaller scenes. Very scripted, very back and forth, you know, coverage, etc. Yeah, but then in the edit, it was sort of like, there's still something we need that we haven't quite found yet in terms of communicating the kind of interiority of this very stoic, big, strong guy who doesn't really reveal his motion emotion that much on screen. And so I brought Ike, the star of the film, into my studio and just interviewed him. I was like, in character, you're Abe now, and I'm going to interview you on mic.
And that turned into narration, that turned into voiceover that weaves in and out throughout the film in a very oblique way. He's never talking about the story or anything that happens in the film. He's just kind of expressing this inner philosophy or these kind of, like, little observations about life that come in and out.
So that. Yeah, it's like these strategies between scripted and documentary really kind of touch on each other.
[00:49:10] Speaker B: I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:12] Speaker C: And to tag it back to Luke, To Luke's original question or the stuff we were talking about before about, you know, developing your voice even through commercial stuff, it seems like there's kind of a.
Even a blurred line between what's commercial and what's. What's, you know, a personal project to some extent. Because you. You did this Muscle beach thing that was for. For a. For a brand or for.
[00:49:34] Speaker A: For. No, that was a documentary.
[00:49:36] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: It was back in the heyday of, like, when Facebook was paying every magazine to put their. To make short documentaries. Social media. So it was one of those, like, online docs.
[00:49:45] Speaker C: Totally. Well, I. I guess my question is, what is your.
What is your relationship with commercial work. And how did you first start, you know, setting yourself up for, for gigs like that?
[00:50:00] Speaker A: I mean, I realized I graduated into the recession of 2008, 2009, graduated in 09 from UChicago and moved to Detroit where the cost of living was extremely low, which was really helpful in terms of becoming like an artist and just pursuing stuff I was interested in. We were paying like, you know, somewhere between 1 and $300 a month to live in Detroit and.
[00:50:22] Speaker A: Everybody was just having a great time and being bohemians. But I realized pretty quickly that if I wanted to take this seriously, I needed to make some money. So yeah, it was just kind of. I don't know the answer to your question, like how.
Sorry, was it like how I found commercial work?
[00:50:37] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, essentially. Yeah, yeah.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: It was just. I realized that it was part and parcel. You have to do both. I, you know, it's pretty easy to understand that when you, when you become a professional freelancer that like in order to make your rent, you have to make commercial work. But I also think I realized pretty quickly that commercial work was another outlet for creative work and you could do interesting stuff.
[00:51:01] Speaker C: Right.
[00:51:02] Speaker A: It's not like I was making TV commercials out of college, but I'd be, I'd be hired by random companies to make like web videos or you know, like little sponsored brand content or whatever.
And I would just use, I would pitch myself as like, I'm the documentary filmmaker who makes commercials look like documentaries and will do like cool verite footage. And you know, vice was coming out with all that similar type of branded content around that time.
[00:51:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:26] Speaker A: So it was a pretty easy thing to slot into my professional endeavors. I'd say.
[00:51:33] Speaker B: What was your way in? Was it through networking and coffees or did you get partnered with some representation? Like what, what provided you those first jobs?
[00:51:44] Speaker A: No, I've never had representation in Detroit. It's all, it's a small town, you know, I, the first thing I did when I graduated from college was I got an internship at Detroit's alternative weekly called the Metro Times.
Back then, every city had an all weekly newspaper. Some still do. L. A. Still does, but they're kind of a dying breed unfortunately. But yeah, it was kind of like left leaning alternative media, really interested in the local arts and politics and what was going on.
And they didn't have video content. So I was, I was like clipping and gluing pieces of their old newspaper and their cubicles and I was like, this is boring. Let me just pitch some videos.
And I did. And I started going out with their journalists to different areas around the city and just like making video components of their print journalism.
[00:52:31] Speaker C: Cool.
[00:52:32] Speaker A: And then they, their publisher, this guy, I guess his title was publisher, he saw that work and he reached out to me and he was like, hey, we need some ad type stuff for the Internet. We need to advertise this or that kind of like event or thing that we're doing. Can we pay you to do that? So the internship was not paid, but then I finally did get money out of it by making little ads for newspaper and just meeting people.
[00:52:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it shows that like, you know, you can get a internship or job for a specific thing and then you can just like nobody's telling you to do, to follow these journalists around and film stuff, but you do it and you show this is what I'm actually good at. And then eventually you get a gig out of it.
[00:53:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:53:16] Speaker C: I think it's a good learning moment for everybody.
[00:53:20] Speaker A: Definitely. And I'm really, I mean, I don't, you know, I don't know if those types of internships.
Maybe you could tell me. I mean, you're, you're probably in touch with more film school students and recent graduates than I am at this point. Like, do. Are there still internship opportunities to get into this type of work?
[00:53:36] Speaker C: I mean, I think my.
There are internship opportunities in general, and I think it's kind of about.
Maybe it's not exactly what you want to do, but it's about what you make of it.
[00:53:47] Speaker B: Right?
[00:53:48] Speaker C: Like, you're a good example. Like, you don't want to write newspaper articles, so you just started doing your own thing and showing them what you can do. And then you kind of filled that, that gap that you made almost, you know, like, you, you showed them that this is something I'm good at, so. And they appreciated that.
And it's about kind of finding a place like that. I feel like my, my first internship in entertainment was in talent management, which I'm not incredibly interested in. But then I eventually, I mean, we talk about the weird pathways in entertainment, but I eventually started working there as an assistant. And then, you know, you work your way up and you start like. Luke and I started recording the podcast, like literally like in this. In the space that was like my office. And that's some, that's some way that, you know, because I got really close with my boss and he was like, yeah, sure, come in on a weekend and film stuff here. So that was, that's an example. And then eventually I got in touch with a couple filmmakers who are clients there, and they helped me get a job at a production company, which is definitely more towards what I want to do. So I think there's. There's definitely, like, pathways, and it's. It's about kind of not being picky with your internships, you know, like, that's. That's a really important thing, you know?
[00:55:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think to what you're saying, Wyatt, it's also.
It's also. I mean, I hate the term networking. I don't relate to that term because I feel like if you're. If you're setting out to network. For me, at least. If I'm setting out to network, it doesn't work. Like, I.
I can't just go up to someone who I'm like, oh, this person's important. They have something I want or something like that, and I'm going to talk to them. The conversation is awkward and weird and doesn't usually work, but it is about getting into these spaces and finding people who you can relate to and, like, being open to friendships, which I think is way more important than what you might call networking.
[00:55:36] Speaker C: Totally.
[00:55:36] Speaker A: It's sort of like finding. Finding natural connections with people, listening to people and forming some kind of bond. That's the only. The only thing.
[00:55:46] Speaker C: That's it.
That's. I mean, Luke and I went to kindergarten together. Like that. That's how we know each other. We were friends through kindergarten to high school. You know, like, we grew up together.
[00:55:57] Speaker A: You guys were networking in kindergarten?
[00:55:59] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:56:00] Speaker C: We met at a networking event for kindergartners.
[00:56:03] Speaker B: We did.
[00:56:03] Speaker C: That's la.
[00:56:05] Speaker B: It was at the Buffalo Club.
[00:56:06] Speaker C: It was Buffalo Club.
[00:56:07] Speaker B: It's kind of like a bar.
[00:56:08] Speaker C: I think it was a CAA thing for kindergartners.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:12] Speaker A: Little. Little sippy cups of apple juice.
[00:56:15] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:56:16] Speaker B: No, it was great. I met a few people to work with. Yeah, I just finished this drawing. What about you?
[00:56:22] Speaker A: I'm working on this little pile of blocks. I think it's going to be a castle at some point.
[00:56:26] Speaker B: Oh, that's great. Anyone attached?
[00:56:28] Speaker C: Yeah, the teacher loves it.
[00:56:31] Speaker A: No, I think a lot of people in LA really do place a premium on networking. And, you know, if you can make that work for you, God bless you. I think that's wonderful. It's a skill I do not have. And so for me, it's just like.
It's just finding people that there's some natural connection with and not stressing out too much about a lack of natural connection with somebody, like, cool or important or Whatever. You just, you know, the only. The only good work comes out of, like, true vibing with somebody.
[00:56:57] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. You can't force it.
[00:57:01] Speaker B: You can't force it. And a lot of times making stuff leads to meeting the right people.
[00:57:08] Speaker A: Yeah, no question. That's. Yeah, you know, that's right. It's a.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: It's like putting. Putting your voice out there. Exactly, exactly.
We. We ask all of our guests this at the end of the podcast, which is a simple question.
What is the dream?
[00:57:28] Speaker A: The dream is to.
[00:57:32] Speaker A: Move closer and closer to being able to regularly make films that people watch and that.
[00:57:40] Speaker A: I have creative freedom over and really deep, generative.
[00:57:49] Speaker A: Collaborations with other people and to not have to do other work.
So, yeah, that's. That's the dream.
[00:57:57] Speaker C: Once again, well said. He's got away with words.
[00:58:00] Speaker B: He's got a way with words.
[00:58:01] Speaker C: Well, we. We really appreciate you coming on the show. It's been a really, really fulfilling conversation. I feel like we've had a. A nice balance of, you know, talking about the artistic side, and also, you know, we've talked some business as well, so really appreciate you coming on, man. It's been.
[00:58:19] Speaker A: It's really flew by. I was. I know everyone always says that, but it's really true. It's fun to just kind of like, lock in and talk about.
[00:58:26] Speaker C: I know we actually started. We didn't even get to, like, introduce you because we started. We.
[00:58:31] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. We totally did not introduce you.
[00:58:34] Speaker C: I feel like Luke and I were so locked into this. The. The.
This current documentary that you're shooting, and we. We were like. We got to ask him. Well, he's willing to talk about it. You know, we got to.
[00:58:45] Speaker A: Right Rationalist.
[00:58:47] Speaker B: What's going on? What's going on around here?
[00:58:49] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:58:51] Speaker B: Well, I guess they probably know who you are now after. After an hour, so.
[00:58:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:58:57] Speaker A: Oh, the. The audience. I thought you meant the rational.
[00:58:59] Speaker B: Yeah, the audience.
[00:58:59] Speaker A: They know who I am.
[00:59:00] Speaker C: They definitely know.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: They. They know. They know.
[00:59:02] Speaker C: Everybody knows each other. Everybody knows each other now. We did it.
[00:59:05] Speaker A: We've networked network successfully.
[00:59:07] Speaker B: There you go. Perfect. There you go. Perfect. Well, dude, I will say before we hop off the really quick, though, the. The Square Pusher video is so cool. So cool.
[00:59:16] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah, I love that one. That was a. That was a up shoot. That was the first two weeks of COVID lockdown, and Warp Records asked if I would do this, and I was like, yes, of course I'll do this.
I got on a plane. This was before anybody was wearing masks. Or anything like that. And I was, like. My girlfriend was so freaked out and upset that I was traveling, like, getting on a plane when everybody else was locked down and every business was clothes. And I got on this plane with, like, a full plastic poncho and rubber gloves and a full face mask, and I looked like a. Like a total freak, honestly.
[00:59:51] Speaker B: And they let you through security for sure.
[00:59:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:54] Speaker C: I mean, there wasn't security during COVID There. There wasn't any.
[00:59:58] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:59:59] Speaker A: No one.
[00:59:59] Speaker B: You just got on the plane, you went right out the door.
[01:00:02] Speaker A: I was total. I, like, slept. I rented a car, wiped it all down with alcohol wipes, and then slept in the car in my mom's driveway.
[01:00:10] Speaker B: Oh, God.
[01:00:12] Speaker A: You know, kill my parents. With COVID it was a dark time. It was really. And it was very confusing. But then, yeah, we spent a wonderful day shooting on this empty train throughout empty downtown Detroit. But it was very intense, very weird.
[01:00:25] Speaker B: We'll definitely link. We'll link the video in the description because it's. It really is awesome.
Like, incredibly powerful.
[01:00:32] Speaker A: Appreciate that.
[01:00:35] Speaker B: Well, awesome. I. I did want to just mention that, but thanks. Thank you so much for. For coming on, man, and for being down to.
To hop on here and.
[01:00:44] Speaker A: Anytime. Anytime. It's. It's. It's. You guys have an interesting framework here. I think it's cool to talk about these things in concert with each other.
[01:00:51] Speaker C: Appreciate it, dude.
All right, thanks, man.
[01:00:55] Speaker A: Thanks. Bye.
[01:01:05] Speaker B: Did you learn something? Unlike your mom? Did you learn something in the. This episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050 Fest on Instagram and give us five stars, because. Why not? Why not subscribe? Why not? You know, why not? Okay. By.
