Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: But if we're talking about people who want to make movies and they want that to, like, with their friends and with their budget that they can. You have to be, like, realistic about what you have at your disposal and, yeah, match your ambitions with your resources and not feel bad if you can't make sinners for $50,000, because that's just, like, not how it works. Works. But you can make a great feature for $50,000 with your friends in your apartment and at the park or whatever, and then you have a movie, and then now you're a filmmaker. You could do it also be a short, you know, whatever. You could. Then you're a filmmaker, and then you walk into a room in a different way, and then you make a bigger film the next time, and you make a bigger film the next time. And I think a lot of it just speaks to thinking of your life as, like, building a career as opposed to, like, arriving at some kind of like. Like, I want. I want to just arrive and be this thing. It's like. It's. It's building a lifelong career.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Welcome to the 5050 podcast, where we've made it our mission to nurture and empower the next generation of industry talent. Through this podcast, we expand the reach of the 5050 film festival by giving an exclusive peek behind the curtain into the creative and business sides of the entertainment industry. We sit down with folks from all corners of the biz, garnering educational insight into process, production, and execution. This week, we talk with Michael Dosher, who graces us with his wisdom and charm as he takes us through how a kid listening to NSYNC in Arkansas somehow winds up making a film about open relationships. That's right. Michael's festival darling, Throuple is currently available to stream on Apple tv, Amazon prime, and Dekkoo. Enjoy the episode.
Yeah, exactly.
[00:01:57] Speaker C: Can you. Can you talk about this band, man, before Wyatt gets into the intro and everything?
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Sure.
Well, it's in. So, you know, I wrote Throuple about my time in the New York music scene, which included being in a band. Our band was called Darlin. The Band. D A R L, I N. Exclamation point.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Very Southern of you.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Very southern.
[00:02:22] Speaker B: I see those roots coming through.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: Yep. I'm from Arkansas, and it was like. It was like synth pop. I was the singer and writer of most of the songs, like lyrics and melody. The band would write the sort of music, and then, yeah, it was. It was kind of like the 1975 meets Britney Spears. I would say like a. That was. I was. I Brought the Britney. They brought the 1975.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Love that.
[00:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it was fun. It was a good time. It was very. I wore a lot of glitter.
It was. It was fun. It was a good, like, five to seven years of my life.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: You seemed comfortable in the glitter in Throuple. I'll just say that.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: It seemed like it came easy to you.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: That was not an outfit that our costume designer found. That was one that already existed in my life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: What scene was the glitter involved in?
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Probably, like, the final scene where I finally take the stage.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, of course.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Of course. Yeah.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: But there were some fun outfits in, like, the fourth of July scene, too. I remember.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Yeah. That was all our costume designer and her and Grayson, who directed it. They were playing with, like. There was a lot of thought that went into, like, every thing that I went way over my head. But they were playing with, like, what would Michael dress like by himself? What would Michael dress like if Tristan helped him? What would Michael dress like if Connor helped him? Like, it was all that type of stuff.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Well, I think that's a great pivot to kind of introing you.
I saw the film Throuple about a month ago. At this point, maybe this is your baby. This is the film you wrote and starred in, which is such an interesting combination of roles on set that I'm really interested in taking a deeper dive into. But we've known each other for probably 2ish years now, I would say.
Mutual friends. Intro to us. You used to work at nyu, but before that went to the exact program that I went to at nyu. So a lot in common. I remember we met at an alumni event for the first time, and we've seen each other for coffees since then, and it's been a really great relationship. I feel like you're. You're just, like. You're always steps ahead of where I want to be, you know? So I. I really. I really value the advice that I get to take from you and. And spoiler alert. But you've done it. You've made a feature film that has got into festivals and had so much success, and I'm just so honored to have you on the podcast. Really, it means so much. You're an amazing, inspirational figure in my life.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Whoa. Wyatt, thank you so much.
That means so much to me. Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm happy for you to meet Luke, too, because, Luke, his job is to platform filmmakers, and specifically filmmakers that feel like the industry is daunting and such a big thing to take on.
And we're really excited to get into the Nitty Gritty.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Hell, yeah.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: So, yeah, we're. Let's, let's get into it.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Let's go. I'm all about the Nitty Gritty. I'm excited.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: Yes.
So you went to NYU for writing.
And did you start with writing features or TV or, like, where did you kind of start in your, in your writing journey?
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I always go back to, like, basically, like, high school and really wanting to not go to college. I was like, well, I'm not going to college. I'm going to move to either New York or LA and just become famous. I'm just going to, like, audition for movies and plays on Broadway and, like, I'm meant to be a star. And this is, like, probably, like, you know, between the ages of, like, 11 and 16.
And then it's like, because I was so obsessed with entertainment and Broadway and movies and pop stars, and I just. And it was such a fantasy to imagine myself in that role.
And.
And I grew up, you know, in the Bible Belt, and it was not a great place for me to grow up as a queer person, as a creative person.
So I, I, So anyway. But all this to say is like, there was just this day where my dad was like. I said, I'm not going to college. I was probably, like, mad at them and in a fight, and he was like, you are definitely going to college. Like, we're like, you know, we're making you go to college. And then I remember thinking, how could I go to college in a way that works for me. And then I was, like, looking up, like. And then I was in a film class, and I was. I was developing this interest in film in high school, and I was always best at writing and English and that subject. And so when I kind of put two and two together, that you could write films, that. That was an art form that I had not considered before.
And then realized that there was a great, you know, screenwriting program at NYU which allows me to go to New York, which was always the kind of goal. That's how it all started. Like, by the time it was time to apply to nyu, I already had plenty of, like, scripts. I already knew final draft and stuff, because I was.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah. So ahead of.
I guess so. Yeah, it was. I mean, I don't know. I just. I just. That was a, like, my side. I would just go up to my room every day after school and just write scripts and plays and musicals and, And So that's the start. It's always been features first. I definitely try to write TV and plays, but features really comes the most naturally to me.
[00:08:13] Speaker C: Where did you grow up?
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Conway, Arkansas.
[00:08:17] Speaker C: Conway, Arkansas?
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like a suburb of the capital.
[00:08:21] Speaker C: How does one in Conway, Arkansas, think about going to nyu?
[00:08:28] Speaker A: Like, how does it, like, enter my.
[00:08:30] Speaker C: Yeah, how did that. How did that come about? And. And I also want to dig even more into, like, just broader scope of, like, why were you even. How did you even come to think about entertainment? Obviously you just mentioned, like, film and.
And having this interest to write and everything. But, like, I don't know, you always hear about, like, it seems like such a distant thing if you're not from an LA or New York or something like that. And it's like, why even try it? Like, it's just some distant. Like. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to actually do that, you know?
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Well, that's, you know, the answer to that question is music. Like, I. You know, long before I started becoming obsessed with film, I was a singer. I had a good voice as a prepubescent child. And so I was in all these, like, advanced choirs at church and at school and in extracurricular spaces.
And then I loved. And so, like, music was the first love of my life. And I loved pop stars, too, you know, And I loved, you know, my. My. Before I became a screenwriter, my first memories are of, like, being a child and singing into my karaoke machine for my parents and singing Britney Spears and NSync. And those are the two main ones. I was going to say Backstreet Boys, but I. To be honest, I kind of think Backstreet Boys kind of suck. I know this probably doesn't mean that much.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: There's our clip. There's our clip. We got it.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: Y' all are younger than me, so maybe you're like, I don't give a fuck about this, but Backstreet Boys kind of suck. NSync is way better.
And so I always say, like, oh, I listen to the backstory boys, but it's not really true. There's, like, a video of me as a kid trying to get through a backstory boy song, but I don't know the words.
[00:10:12] Speaker B: You're just like, this sucks. Yeah.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: It just feels so obligatory to try because they're, like, part of it all, but it just never really clicked with me.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: It feels obligatory to say their name when you're saying, like, it's like a. It just, like, rolls off the tongue. But then you're like, wait, but no.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: No, it wasn't hitting for me. They were not the ones. Yeah, so. So anyway, so like, that's how I kind of knew about entertainment and just, I think just, I don't know, you know, before you're even sexually aware, there's a. At least for me, there was like a. I was different than other people that I now attribute to my queer queerness. But it's pre sexuality. But I just didn't see any other path for me within the town that I lived in. Like, it was like I was so drawn to show business, baby. Like, I couldn't really see myself doing anything that any of my peers were interested in or any of my, you know, adults that I knew were interested in. So I wanted to be the next Britney Spears. And then that kind of morphed over time, but that was the start, I think.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: Yeah. What I'm hearing is that there was a lot of drive towards self expression and especially, you know, being, you know, not even, as you mentioned, like, sexually aware, but understanding that you were really interested in people who were able to be their truest self. And I think through music that's. It's. It's like the most authentic version of that. Like, music is in you, you know, and, and you're able to express that. And I'm thinking about little Michael, you know, on that karaoke machine. And it's, it's. It's a very sweet image were you're. How did your parents feel about all of that? And specifically, like, being creative in a.
You know, every town is their local theater. Right. And every town has their choirs and things like that. But were your parents supportive of you artistically, specifically?
[00:12:19] Speaker A: I would say so. I.
I would say so. I think that they let me do what I wanted to do, and that included kind of the musicals and the, you know, I was in like a college musical as a child. You know, it was Big river, if that means anything to any listener. And I was like, you know, it's a gag. It's Huckleberry Finn, so it's a gaggle of young boys.
And I was, you know, part of his, like, friend. I was part of Huck's friend circle as a kid, you know, with the college students at Ouachita Baptist University. And again, it's the Bible Belt. So these are, these are Christian colleges.
But they, you know, they drove me to that and, and they drove me to piano lessons and obviously paid for those things as I'm a kid. And my dad especially comes to mind as someone who's always been really supportive of me artistically. There was. I've always worried about their. As an adult, at least, I've always worried about their reaction to my art because we live in such culturally different places now and are entertaining different ideas about the world. But he once said to me, like, your art is, like, your thing. Like, don't, like, stop thinking about me and your mom while you create it. Like, that's your space. And, like, it doesn't matter what we think about it or anything. So I think that they have this kind of, like, understanding that the work must be done for a creative, for an art, for an artist, like, has to be able to explore that. They let me put on a production of Rent in my backyard when I was in the 10th grade. I did. I did tell them it was Annie until the day before we performed it. So I. I also, like, lied to them.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: But, yeah.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: So sometimes there was a.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Lure them in with trickery involved. Yeah. Love that. And then, bam. It's Rent.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely some trickery involved. I navigated through my childhood and maybe some morally obtuse ways, but overall, I would say they were supportive.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: So then you get to New York, and was your mind just blown at. Was it just, like, a culture shock? Or had you. Had you gone in the past or what did. What did that mean to you creatively to find yourself in New York eventually?
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd be curious about the same thing with you, Wyatt, because I found NYU to be, like, kind of.
Yeah. Like, overwhelming. And honestly, like, not necessarily in, like, a fun way at first. Like, it felt just like. I felt very out of place. Place. Like, it felt like everyone knew how to dress better than me. Everyone knew how to, like, eat better than me. And, like. Like, I just. Like, I didn't. Like, I remember one time, like, this is so silly. But I was, like, putting. Like, we don't really eat a lot of bagels in Arkansas. Like, toast is one thing, but, like, fancy bagels is another. And I was, like, buttering my bagel, but I was buttering, like, the top of it. And everyone in the cafeteria is, like, making fun of me. And I was like, I just don't. I just, like, I just don't know how to do bagels.
[00:15:42] Speaker C: I had, like, the top, like, the act. Like, the actual. Like.
Yeah, that's awesome.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: I didn't know what else to do.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: I mean, that's gotta be a movie at some point. I know. I was gonna say that's. That's You've put that out there, now you own that. That's your thing. Put. Put that in something, please.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it was so silly. I just, like, it was culture shock in a way. I had to really kind of learn the ways of a New York life.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I, you know, I think we. We obviously come from different places. I did grow up in LA and. And had a sort of tangential understanding of. Of the way the industry worked and everything.
I think NYU was not in the sort of maybe same exact culture shock as you, but I think it was. I felt a. A culture shock so specifically with the competitiveness at NYU and the.
Whether it was created completely mentally in my head, but just with the improv and sketch groups and everybody at NYU comes in being that person at their high school who is the top writer, top performer, or. And then you get there and you're just like, wow, I am nothing compared to all these people. And, like, these people, I know some of them are going to get onto SNL and, like, some of them are going to pop off as pop stars. And, like, that definitely feels that. That is what felt intimidating to me. I think it was really lucky that, you know, I hope you feel the same way about our individual program in the writing program, because I feel like there was not as much ego in that program.
It felt very collaborative and not, as, you know, there weren't huge personalities. It was very much like, we're a team. So I. I really found that as like, a haven. Did you. Did you find a sense of community right away in New York?
[00:17:39] Speaker A: Wow. I resonated with everything you said. I just remembered, like, Hammer Cats and like, all the. Oh, my. And I auditioned for all that shit.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah, me too.
[00:17:47] Speaker C: Yeah, me too.
Are those improv groups? Hammer Cat? Like, what is that?
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a sketch group and then there's improv groups. And all of these, of course, have, like, the founding members who are, like, all SNL people and writers and really successful people. So it definitely felt intimidating.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Yeah. I mean, I auditioned for Hammer Cats. I auditioned for a couple acapella groups. Didn't get into any of them.
I made it to second round, but it was not. I never secured the deal. And I do remember feeling like, whoa, I am.
I was. I was also just, like, really, I think, insecure. Like, I think that I didn't. I think. I think that that's part of the culture shock for me was like, I just didn't have.
I didn't bring with me a sense of confidence. I brought with me like a. I'm ready to explore a new world. But I. I don't guess I really landed with the thinking of I'm ready to take over the world, even if I thought that's what I would have as a kid. But when you're there, you get kind of just like blinded by all the talent and all the. You're still a kid. I mean, it's crazy how young you are in college.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: So it's really true.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So I give myself a lot of grace. If I could do it again, I would. I would love to start on day one with the level of confidence I have at 33, at 18. But we don't get to do that. Yeah, but, you know, I. But it's fine. You know, it's like we were young and we did the best we could. And I agree with you about our program. I mean, one place that I felt like I did have control and I did have a sense of like, agency in what I put out there and what was received and how I was perceived was through the writing. And I definitely found, because, you know, our teachers let us write about whatever we wanted. And I felt like I explored a lot of new ideas that I would definitely have been too afraid to write about in Arkansas. And so, yeah, I made most of my friends the dramatic writing program. And I still feel pretty close to the program. They've been champions of throuple and my favorite teacher from my time at NYU is now the chair of the department. So I still feel like a tie to the program. And that's kind of where I've settled in as my main place. Place for sure.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So specifically with, you know, getting into your writing and you know, that self discovery through writing, is there a through line that you see in your writing? I know specifically in the writer's lab that you belong. Belong to now that you've been lucky enough, I've been lucky enough to take part in from time to time.
They, they talk a lot about writing in terms of like, what is. What is there there. There are only so many sort of structures to it to a screenplay and a type of character. And like, do you see yourself gravitating towards a specific type of writing or like an emotional arc that. That fits who you are or your. Your writing?
[00:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the themes of most of my like pieces either are about coming to terms with the wholeness of who you are, like having shame about one part of yourself or feeling like one part of yourself is taboo or can't be explored. And then because it's, because it's in conflict with the other part of yourself that feels more accepted. And then by the end of the piece, everyone, or at least the main characters realize that true freedom comes from accepting the totality of who they are.
Not even warts and all, but like even just like. Because that, that implies something's bad, but just like all of it. Just like it's all good, it's all who you are.
And then I guess also like characters kind of finding the strength to go after what they want in life I think is a big thing for me, which is why most of my stuff could be classified as like coming of age, no matter what the age is. You know, my favorite script that I have right now is about a 70 year old waffle House waitress in Arkansas or Missouri depending on how, how it goes production wise. But either way it's like my point that I'm trying to make is like it's definitely coming of age even though she's 70.
So it's. So it's not, you know, your typical teenager coming of age. So I'd say like, yeah, like I think the themes of my work are about coming of age and accepting yourself for who you are.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: That's amazing. Yeah, thanks.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: You said seven zero, 70 year old Waffles employee?
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:40] Speaker C: Yeah, that sounds awesome. Can you talk a little bit about that idea or no?
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Are you sure?
[00:22:45] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, it's, it's a script called Ronita Rambo and it is about a 70 year old waffle House waitress who meets a woman in AA and they, they fall in love and she turns to a, a gay kid, a 16 year old gay kid who frequents her diner as his sort of safe space because he can't really go anywhere else on dates in his, you know, conservative homophobic community. But her diner is kind of this magical space where he feels like he can be himself. So, so he's been frequenting her diner for a while and when she meets this woman, she turns to him for support. And how to ask this girl, this woman in AA out. And then. So you have a lot of things going on. You have the love story of the two late in life queer women and then you have the friendship of the 70 year old Waffle House waitress and her 17 year old customer. And then you have his life because he's, you have his, his coming of age journey as a high schooler trying to figure out what to do as he graduates all in kind of one movie.
[00:24:01] Speaker C: Are you with Something like that. And the stage you're at now as a filmmaker, having done this feature film and successfully distributing in the whole thing, are you looking at a proof of concept for a feature sort of situation? Or is it like, I know my crew, I know how to raise funds. Like, let's just jump into the feature and do this. Like, I can do it. Where's your head at with that?
[00:24:27] Speaker A: Excellent question.
So I'm still figuring it all out. So I think, you know, I'm gonna shoot. So I. So the answer to your question is that I feel very lucky enough to.
That this script has won this competition called the Missouri Stories Competition, which is run out of the Missouri Film Office. And, and it means that they, they, they found it to be the best script set in Missouri of the year. Of the people that submitted.
[00:24:59] Speaker C: Wow, congrats, man.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
Yeah, I really appreciate that and I'm very excited. And as the winner, they are funding a proof of concept. So I will go do that in June.
I will go to. And part of their goal as the Missouri film office is to bring filmmaking to the state. So it's going to be an all Missouri crew.
And so I'll just fly in. I'm already having zoom meetings with the team, but it'll be an all Missouri crew except for me.
And so all this to say is like, I feel very fortunate that that opportunity presented itself to me and that's now the way that I'm going about it, which is like, let's do a proof of concept, establish the world, make it be a self contained enough short that it stands on its own to go to festivals and have a life that just like kind of build the resume of the project so that it's not just a great script. It's a great script plus a proof of concept, plus all the other elements.
But it's interesting just like to broaden that out to like your question of like, what does one do when they have a thing film they want to make? I, I'm still like working through that myself. And I think that, you know, this is the avenue I'm taking now because of the Missouri Film office. But if that wasn't what was happening, I too like him. Like, what does one. There's just so many avenues. And I think the thing about like throuple that was helpful is like, it's not like you make throuple and then Hollywood's knocking at your door to be like, I have a million, I have $2 million. Like, what do you want to do? Now, yeah, that's what I. That's what thought would happen. By the way, when I was 26 and writing Thruffle, I was like, this is gonna blow everyone's mind, and I'm gonna be in demand, you know? And I think one thing about getting older and. And wiser is like.
Or, you know, who knows? I'm sure that does happen to some filmmakers. But I. For me, it's like I've realized, oh, everything is just about, like, adding tools to your toolkit of how you talk about yourself and how you pitch yourself and your own kind of confidence in your work. And, like, you're gonna make it happen. Like, no one's gonna just hand you the career you want, which is a horrible realization I've had as I've gotten older.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:31] Speaker C: What.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: What tools do you think you gained through the. The Throuple process, specifically? I'm sure it's like a zillion things, but what are those? So those sort of main values that. That you learned through that entire process of making a feature for the first.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: Time, going off of that, what are you doing differently now in the prep process for this next proof of concept or feature.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:56] Speaker C: Which will become a feature.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Yeah. These are great questions. You guys are great interviewers.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: Oh, come on.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Okay, so the tools. I mean, I already said a lot about this, so I won't belabor it, but I think confidence is huge because it's just, like, you just add the fact that you've done it to your resume and so you can talk about yourself and what you're capable of in a new way.
So I would encourage anyone to just, like, do whatever makes sense for them to level up themselves up just in how they see themselves, you know, like, it's like, not even about, like, leveling yourself up in your career path. It's like, which. Which, you know will happen by doing something that allows you to enter a room and just have more things to say about what you've accomplished. So with Throuple, I can, like, list the film festivals that it went to. To. And that's very different than not being able to do that because it didn't happen, you know, and so that's really cool. And so I would say it's just like that having an elevated sense of self and. And. And what you're capable of, and even just seeing your own script, like, congeal, you know, it's like you have this, like, document. You're like, I think it works. But, you know, then you see the movie and you're like, oh, it worked. You know, for the most, you know, you obviously have notes and nothing's perfect, but you're like, hey, my idea kind of congealed and tells a full story, and people laughed and people liked it. So that's all really good. I would say for me, I didn't go to film school per se. I went to screenwriting school. So I also just learned all the different things that it takes to make a movie. And I learned how important having, like, a crew that is passionate about the project is, especially for your first thing. You know, it's like, I always get weird about talking about this because I have this dual mindset where it's like, every creative should be paid and every creative should fight for what they're worth. And. And by. And by the way, people did get paid on Throuple, but it's like everyone got paid very little, like, the lowest possible rate. You know that because we didn't have any money and we needed to. For at least our first project, we needed a crew that really ran on desire to make it happen, you know? Right. And that was a huge learning experience because we were, you know, we were with different people, different, you know, teams before we landed on this team. And the conversations like that stopped the progress about.
About money and. And budget and, you know, and it just wasn't working. And it needed to be. Or to get it going, it needed to be like a real crew of people making their first movie together who were doing it for low rates or no rates, depending on how, you know, like me, for instance, I.
[00:31:12] Speaker B: Just.
Because of their shared passion for the idea. And it's about finding those crew members who are going to support you and that vision.
[00:31:21] Speaker A: Yes. Well said. Well said. And I don't think that's how every project in the history of movies should be, but for your first one, it's like it was either like, we just wait around for years until we have a million dollars, or we do what we can with what we got. And you have to. You have to have a crew that's aligned with you on this is what we're gonna do.
[00:31:43] Speaker C: Why? Why? Why did you say now is the time? What? Because there. There is. And I'm. I'm starting to think about this so much more, too, as a filmmaker of like. And listening to more established filmmakers and directors who have, like, if it's not the right moment for this story to be told or this project to be made, like, they're pushing it, they're putting it on a shelf, and, like, 10, 6, 10, whatever. 20 years later they'll make it. Yeah, that's that for me. That used to be so difficult to fathom.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:12] Speaker C: And now at least, like, just maturing a bit more and like, understanding art a little bit more and like, just having intention with stuff and really understanding that there is absolutely a right place and a right time for things. And there is a lot of power not forcing something that's not meant to be forced.
And they're like. They're true, like beauty in that, you know, and it. It shows in the product how.
Why did you say it's time for Throuple? This needs to happen right now.
Like if. If there was compromise with crews because of budgetary concerns. Right. Or like, parameters or restrictions is the word.
[00:32:54] Speaker A: Like. Yeah.
[00:32:56] Speaker C: Why. Why now? I guess I'm sure you pitched that a hundred times with it, but.
[00:33:00] Speaker A: No, sure.
Well, I would say, like.
I would say in like a sort of.
In a pitching sense, why now was that it was very zeitgeisty to talk about open relationships. And it felt like that was kind of the new frontier in a lot of ways. There was.
There was from couple to Throuple on NBC, there was.
Or on Peacock.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: We all remember that.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: Obviously, I don't think it made it to prime time, but it was on Peacock. I think I'm just imagining that at like 7pm on a Wednesday on NBC. I don't know if that works.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Your kids are like, what is this?
[00:33:50] Speaker A: There was. There was. It just felt like it was the moment for this movie on a spiritual basis. Like, the DNA of it felt lively and now. And it did feel to me like if it went on, if. If we put it on the shelf for too long. And I still believe this to some extent because there's such a different. Like, I have such a different reaction to the movie and its themes. It's. It's theme specifically around polyamory than I did when I started writing it. So I just think it was fresh for now. In a lot of ways that made it easy to pitch, like, this is the moment for Throuple, but then on a less sexy level and when you're not pitching and you're just. And it's just like, logistics. I think that, like, my advice would just be like, take it down to like, the sort of micro decisions that are happening. Because it's like, I don't know if I necessarily felt like, oh, this is the time for Throuple, so we're doing this no matter what, because I believe in it. It was More about, like, the little tiny decisions. Like, oh, like this person wants to cast Tick Tock Stars instead of me and Tristan and that's going to balloon the budget. Like, that doesn't feel like a reason for me to delay this another until we have a million dollars, you know, or this DP is this rate. But this dp, it was more like.
It was more. It was more like you can either do the million dollar version or you can do the, you know, version we did. And every kind of moment, everything that's brought to you is that crossroads and you can just make the decisions as you go. And I always had the, like, Guiding Light, the sort of North Star in my head that was like, this thing was designed to be a calling card for all parties involved, and it was designed to be made with friends and for a low budget. And that was so. So when it. When it started to become. When it started to balloon to fit other people's needs for their career, it.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Becomes less involved in the actual DNA of the film, which I would say that the DNA of the film is very indie. It's very, like, grungy. I mean, the. You. We can get into the locations and everything because, God, I wrote down this term during the Q and A. What was it?
Place First. Right. Place first. You did say Place First.
I also. I was, like, sitting in one of the first rows in this Q and A that you did, and I was taking notes on my phone the whole time. And I was like, is he just thinking that I am just on my phone so bored? And then I was like, he's not looking at me. Why would this be about me? So I went through, like, a whole thought process. But anyway, I wrote down Place first because it was filmed in all of these real sort of like underground Brooklyn music venues.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Which is essential to the DNA of the film and what it's about. And it's about this. This person. I mean, there's. There's like an arc to the movie that is like, this person is a performer and he is.
[00:37:06] Speaker C: What is the logline? I'm sorry, because I've not seen the film, obviously.
[00:37:09] Speaker A: That's okay. Yeah. The log line is. Let's see if I can recite it from memory. A lonely gay singer songwriter has lost his way and his voice. He leans on his best friend and her girlfriend for all of his emotional needs. Until one night he meets a married couple looking for fun. Their relationship blossoms into something way more vulnerable than all parties expected.
And he has to navigate between these two throuples in his life as he comes of age. That's not the logline, but that is. That is the movie.
[00:37:50] Speaker B: It's well said.
[00:37:51] Speaker C: It's like the friendship dynamic.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: There's two pairings that he sort of oscillates between throughout the movie while also trying to find himself, I feel like. And there is like that element, as I was mentioning, like the singer songwriter element, where he does.
I can spoil it. He does end up finding his voice in the end. I'll just say it. He does.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: That's fine.
[00:38:14] Speaker C: You ruined the movie, Wyatt. Thank you.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: You should still go see it because it's really fun and there are so many just really strong formal elements of the movie and the way that it was done visually and obviously writing wise. But yeah, I forget even where we were going with that, but you were.
[00:38:31] Speaker C: Talking about locations with place first. You were saying.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Yes, place first. And I. I'm. I'm curious, you know, when you are producing this film, because you were definitely played a big part as a producer of it as well. What are. What are you thinking about with locations and budget and on all of that and all those smaller decisions you have to make.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. If you have a good script and you. And you bring producers on, they're going to read it and they're going to say, we can make a really banging movie for a million dollars, two million dollars, and it's going to be great and they're going to give you a budget and it's going to look awesome, and you're going to be like, that sounds amazing. And that's the. And that version of Throuple included a lot of venues in Manhattan that inspired the movie and.
And were.
And were, you know, the sort of Mercury lounges, pianos. I mean, they're still very independent. This is not Madison Square Garden or Radio City Music hall, but it was. It was venues that we ultimately couldn't afford. And so then you make that decision that we talked about earlier of like, we're gonna do Throuple now and we're gonna pivot and then you start looking for alternatives. And that's where we found still through our own connections, because my band and Tristan's band and a lot of the bands in the film played both calibers of, you know, venues. But.
And also our producer, Emmy, she gets. I give her so much credit for this moment of venues because she bartended at so many indie music venues.
[00:40:16] Speaker B: Wow. I didn't know that.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So she. Plus the bands involved, really, truly, I Hand over all credit for locations to them because, yeah, she found amazing deals at these.
At these. Again, going back to that sort of thesis I have about, at least for your first feature, everyone has to be aligned that we're just trying to like that making a movie would be cool. You know, it's like, it can't be about the money. You could pay people as fairly as you possibly can, but like, to get the first one off the ground with no studio support at all, everyone has to just think having a finished film will be cool enough to do all this. And that includes the venues that were involved. The venues were excited to have their venue featured in an indie film. You know, the. In the. The drag queen who does this amazing drag sequence, Nikki O. At $3bill. Like, she performs at $3bill every Friday night. So, like, they were both $3bill and her were excited to have that featured in a movie. Same with the bands and the venues that they perform at, and especially the open mic venue, which is very, very, very, you know, chill and small and diy.
So everything had that attitude about it. And they were all. They were all in Brooklyn, mostly in Bushwick.
And yeah, they were real kind of open mic venues and indie band venues that all of our friends worked at.
[00:41:48] Speaker C: What role did. Did music play in the film?
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah, huge role.
I, you know, to. To Wyatt's point about place first. Like, I first got the idea going for Throuple as I was pursuing music, and I would go to open mic nights just by myself with my key tar, and I would sit in the waiting area and wait for my turn and. And I was just hearing some truly incredibly constructed, beautiful, evocative songs from my hoops, from people who became my friends because of going there, you know, And I was like, these are my favorite songs I've ever heard. You know, I want to platform these amazing songs. Like, I'm not hearing music like this out in the world. I'm so happy that I'm hearing the song. So I would go up to musicians and say, like, what was the name of that song? And then I would write it down in my phone. And I used those songs as the kind of, you know, the songs were in the script. The first draft had like, now this song plays, or we're at a concert and this band is playing this song. And so they're. They're part of the foundational DNA.
[00:43:09] Speaker C: Is that with. With everything. Obviously you come from a music background and still are very much entrenched in music.
Do you find yourself writing like this? Consistently with. Whether it's reverse engineering a script via an experience, you know, at a, at a jazz bar or something, it's like, whoa, what a cool song. Like, I just thought of this scene now. Or is it now you're writing stories and like, oh, this song would be cool. That song would be cool. Or is it both somewhere in the middle?
[00:43:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I love, I love that question because it makes me remember. I feel really touched by it because I'm reminded that so many of my favorite films as a kid that made me want to do this had such incredible soundtracks. So, like, the ones that come to mind for me immediately are Juno, Almost Famous, the Perks of Being a Wallflower, Garden State.
These are all movies that Coming of age too.
Yeah, yeah, totally. And they had amazing soundtracks that guide.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: You through it and tell you how to feel and, and heighten those feelings.
[00:44:23] Speaker A: Yes.
And are cohesive to the world building. Like, it's like they're part of the DNA of the fucking thing. You can't. I, I just watched Juno last night to remember it. I, I'm in a very, like, nostalgic headspace and I was like, this, this is a package. This is like, not just a great script or a great performance. It is a package. And it comes down to the soundtrack that these songs inform the mood of the whole thing. And that's what it is for me. It's like, and runny to Rambo. Like, I have the same thing thing where it's like the songs that I would want to play in each scene are there.
They're all like Shania Twain and Dixie chick songs. So I have no idea, like, if that'll happen. Who knows?
[00:45:09] Speaker C: $60 million budget.
[00:45:12] Speaker B: Only for the songs.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: Right, Right.
But it, it just gives you a sense of what it is. Like, it gives you a sense of tone and world and, and with thru, we were lucky enough that those artists, because they were my friends and because they were indie and I met them at open mic nights, they were again, going back to the whole thing. They were down to go for rates lower than they usually would because I just wanted to see it happen.
So, yeah, I think that's my answer is just. And my favorite movies use music as a mood board and I want to do the same.
[00:45:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I, I think that's amazing. And I'm, I'm curious to pivot a little bit into the sort of post experience of Thruppol, specifically with the festival circuit and everything.
I have a, I have a question that I've been wondering for a while. But you've obviously just. Because I follow you on Instagram and you've been posting so much about. It felt like for a while you were in a different city every weekend at a different festival showcasing Thruppol.
And what was that experience for you? Like to go to all those places and get into all these festivals and everything. And did you learn, were you, did you continue discovering things about the film as you had seen it so many times?
[00:46:32] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
You know, since this is a podcast for my fellow independent filmmakers, you know, I think this question's really important because I remember what it felt like to get rejected at first by the big three that you hope to get into, and then by even some after that. And then you think that all of that work was for nothing. Or like maybe you don't have the hit on your hands that you thought you did because you spend, you know, so much time crafting this thing and you really think you got something and then you just get rejections at first. Or at least that's what happened with us. And you know, as you said, Wyatt, the story goes that Thruffle actually did have a really robust and great festival life, but it, we didn't know that was going to be the case. And like, you know, the early indications had us thinking we might be looking at a different type of thing.
So I, I would just say like, your film will find its audience and you have to just, you know, think about what your film is. You know, ours is a queer film and we had the most success in the queer circuit.
So I would say, you know, go for the big ones, but then also kind of like realistically look at what you're working with and there's and, and apply to those festivals and it's not, you know, a concession to, to do niche festivals or specific festivals because that's actually kind of like the ones that will sell out because it's like so tailored to that audience. And you'll also meet the most like minded filmmakers and connections and distributors and programmers for your next thing at the ones that make the most sense for your film.
So the reception to Throuple was great. Once we got the ball rolling with the queer circuit. I think that the queer film festival circuit was so generous and you know, always offered so much amazing hospitality to at least, you know, a few people on the team and often the whole team.
And it was really cool to see people react to the film. I would say the, like, the open relationship and poly community were very excited to see a movie about being open that wasn't using that for drama or like beyond what the type of drama any film needs or just like you know, punching or a punchline that it was a deeper. Deeper ideas there and positive spin on that type of relationship structure. And you know, it's just. It's crazy to see your film like get out there. Like I check letterboxd probably like every week to see if anyone who has given me a review or given the film a review. Like, it's like. It's so weird, but it's. It's really cool. It's really cool.
[00:49:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So what is. What is the next step with the film actually?
[00:49:52] Speaker A: Well, you know, I am really excited that we have a distributor that we love. We. We. This distributor's name is Deku D E K K O O and they are a champion of queer film and have been for a long time and they really get thru and are championing it. So it's. They got. They handled the theatrical release which is where you saw it Wyatt at a. In la. And then we also did New York at the Quad Cinema. And then now it's being prepared for its like online release in June.
[00:50:33] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:50:33] Speaker A: And I do. I do believe they will still be looking for other streamers and other opportunities, but it will be available to the public for. To rent very soon, which is very exciting and I feel really grateful, you know, to be able to kind of like hand the baby to someone who can start with it at a. At.
With a. With fresh eyes. You know, we've been. I've been at this since 2018, so I'm. I'm happy to do everything I can for the movie, but a little bit running on fumes. So it's.
[00:51:11] Speaker B: Oh my God.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: Of course. To find a. It's a perfect moment to find a distributor and be like. Your turn.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Yeah, your turn. Yeah, please.
[00:51:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: We.
[00:51:21] Speaker C: We brushed over it briefly.
[00:51:23] Speaker A: But yeah.
[00:51:24] Speaker C: Now that we've heard about the process of this film of trouble from.
[00:51:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:29] Speaker C: Just every stage of it.
What are those takeaways that you'll. You'll bring with you of like do's and don'ts for your future. Future projects.
[00:51:38] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I kind of touched on that with just like make sure everyone's on the same page about what you're doing and the scope of it. But yeah, there's so much more to say there. I mean you work. So I did not direct Throuple. I wrote and star in it as Wyatt said. Said. But our director was Grayson Horst and he's also our Editor. He did an amazing job. And our three main producers, although there are other producers, I just want to give them credit to Emmy, Kara and Phil.
So me, Grayson, Emmy, Cara and Phil make up what I would call the core, core, core team that met every, at least every week for the past several years about it.
I would say, like, collab, like collaboration is gonna be such a big deal for so long that you really want to make sure you're working with people that you.
That's all see the same vision and all want the same thing and that you can be with for a really long time. Because this stuff takes longer than you will think.
And again, we're talking to. I'm talking to other filmmakers that are going to make their first kind of low budget indie thing. I don't know if every film has to take this long, but you have to have a team that you're willing to, you know, meet with regularly for several years. And there's also only so much you can do to prepare for that. You can't, you can't know every single person you meet for a project at the deepest level from day one. But, you know, do your best to make sure these are people that you enjoy hanging out with and be a good hang and be.
And be willing to collaborate and compromise and hear people out. It's like this, this final product is like, in my opinion, no one person's vision. It's this.
It's this kind of like blob of so many creative impulses and instincts and ideas and some. And then it was honed and crafted and, and molded into this final thing and you're like, oh, there it is. But if I had been like, that line must stay because I think it's funny. Or if Grayson had been like, you know, whatever. If any one person had been like, we're like, put their foot down in this kind of. It's like then it just would have kind of messed up the. At least for Throuple. I can only speak for this one movie, but if there had been anyone who really was not collaborative, I don't know if we would have seen it come together just because that final product is so many ideas of different creative people wrapped in one. So I would say, like, be a good hang.
Bring on people that you can spend many years with and that you trust and that you all see the same vision and definitely like, hold your ground when things matter to you and express yourself, but be flexible, you know, because it takes a fucking even, even a film as small as Throuple. Takes a village to complete and everyone has to feel like their voice matters or else, especially if they're not getting paid very much, it's like, or else what's the point? You know.
[00:55:03] Speaker B: Do you have any advice specifically for people who are acting in a feature film for their first time?
Whether it's remember to drink water or you know, ways to maintain endurance through exhausting filming days or, you know, whatever it is, whatever part of being an actor. I'm curious Devinly, because this is obviously the first time you acted in a feature.
[00:55:27] Speaker A: Everything that I'm going to say is going to sound silly to real actors because they'll know this from day one of them deciding to be an actor. I am, I am primarily a screenwriter who, who cast himself and his first feature. And so that's my perspective. So I will say that one thing I learned on Throuple is like as an actor is as vulnerable as it feels to be performing and to have the cameras on you and to be revealing parts of yourself, especially if you wrote it as well and you're playing yourself in some, in a lot of different ways.
As much as it feels like, you know, you're the most important thing at all times because you're the one everyone's focused on.
Naturalism is the key.
Not great acting, I would say. Like I have seen takes of mine where I was really trying to do something.
[00:56:37] Speaker B: You were really acting.
Really acting and focused on acting. Yeah.
[00:56:42] Speaker A: And the more that I was trying to do something, the like crazier I came across. And I think Grayson as the editor and as the director chose like, you know, got really natural takes out of me and then chose really natural takes for the, for the cut.
There's probably a lot on the cutting room floor that is me looking crazy because I was a first time actor, was like really going for it and, and he reeled me in a lot. And I think some of those takes, I mean, I think you need options. I think some of those takes where I really went for it did make it in because you need, sometimes you should go for it. But overall it's like there's so much trust your like director and your DP and like your team because there's just so much like construction that now I probably sound like silly to anyone who went to film school because this is obvious as well. But there's just so much construction that goes into every frame that, and there's stuff happening in the background. And especially if you're working with someone like Grayson, there's often space split screen going on. So there's not only what's going on on your side of the screen, there's a whole other scene happening on the other side of the screen that like, even if the camera's fully on you, it's not like on you to carry the entire frame. So like just, just vibe, just, just say your lines.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: Take the pressure off of yourself to. Yeah, do so much. You know, just, it's, it's important to just like exist in the space. And what is it like also trusting a director?
You know, because trusting a, you're, you're having to be very vulnerable with the director and they're guiding you through. Sometimes they're asking about your personal life and guiding you through. Have you gone through this and think about this time or whatever it is, depending on their directing style. But what, what is it like being open with a director?
[00:58:32] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, as the writer and star, it was really important to find a director that understood my initial vision.
Obviously Thruffle then becomes the director's vision in many, many, if not most ways. But I, the initial vision was mine before I met Grayson. And so it was important to at least feel like he understood what I was going for initially.
And trust. It all goes back to trust. I trusted him.
And I would say too, it's like he adds so much to the mix that I don't even have access to because he's such a visual, I guess, like just being self aware to know like what you bring to the table and what you're lacking. Because I knew that I was not a visual storyteller. So I was at least at the moment, you know, I'm hope, I'm hoping to get there now, but I, in the moment when I wrote Thruffle, I was all about words and all about story and Grayson's shorts that I watched of his, I could, just before I, I, I contacted him, I was like, whoa. Like if his visual instincts like were applied to my script, I don't know what that would look like, but I think it could be pretty cool.
So I think just like it all goes back to like trust. And then when it comes to vulnerability, I would just say like I, it goes back to that thing about what my dad said about like, you, your art is your thing, like, do whatever you need to do for it. I have such a, such a deep separation between who I am as Michael Dozier and like what the art is that like getting vulnerable with Grayson or with anyone with Throuple was like so thrilling to me because I was just like, this has nothing to do with it. Even though it's me, it's like, it's nothing to do with me. It's for the. It's for the film, you know, So I just looked at any of that stuff as, like, juicy and interesting for the film. So I was kind of excited to just bear it all.
Yeah, yeah.
[01:00:47] Speaker C: You. You've mentioned confidence throughout.
And what I really like is, is that you're saying, at least, I don't mean to be putting words in your mouth, but confidence comes from action and, like, really putting yourself out there and, like, expressing your creative voice or your artistic voice and, like, letting confidence come to you in a very organic way, you know, And I think that's such a great lesson for our listeners. And obviously, like you said, you wish you had the confidence that you do now, as, you know, back in the day when you were 18, walk into those NYU halls.
But I. I wonder if you'd be in the same place now, you know, because I. I do feel like so many young folks who are 18 walking through these film schools are the most pretentious, arrogant, you know, blinded individuals that unfortunately, usually leads them astray in the long run and, like, sure, very much takes them away from creating true, honest art and instead, like, pushes them towards, like, I want to make the next this or the next. I want to be the next this director. You know what I mean? Like, way more.
[01:01:57] Speaker B: It's not authentic.
It's not that organic way. I mean, I just love the way you put that, Michael, of, like, just.
Or as Luke paraphrased it, you know, just like the way you both have been talking about the organic nature of finding confidence, because you can't just, like, get confidence.
And it's. And it. It doesn't feel great pretending like you have confidence, you know, so. So you need to just go in and do it. And however you navigate it, you'll be a little bit more confident the next time. And I. I also love the way you talk about, you know, making stuff so that you can walk into a room and say, I've done this and I've done this. And it's so just like, when you've done stuff and you have stuff that's quick to grasp, it just feels so much more. More comfortable. And that's where the confidence comes from. The confidence comes from experience.
[01:02:49] Speaker A: Yes. I. Whoa. I just have. I had so many ideas because you both just blew my mind with a lot of things you just said. I think that's. I mean, I agree with everything and Like, I would say, like, you, especially for young filmmakers, like, matching your ambitions with your resources feels really important. Like, you know, there's a whole other. There's a whole other life where you're just like. And it's a great life where you're just a writer and you want to sell scripts, and so you just hunker down and you just write a bunch of great scripts and you find ways to sell them, and that's amazing. But if we're talking about people who want to make movies and they want that to, like, with their friends and with their budget that they can. You have to be, like, realistic about what you have at your disposal and.
Yeah, match your ambitions with your resources and not feel bad if you can't make sinners for $50,000, because that's just, like, not how it works. But you can make a great feature for $50,000 with your friends in your apartment and at the park or whatever, and then you have a movie, and then now you're a filmmaker. You could do it also be a short, you know, whatever. You could. Then you're a filmmaker, and then you walk into a room in a different way, and then you make a bigger film the next time, and you make a bigger film the next time. And I think a lot of it just speaks to thinking of your life as, like, building a career as opposed to, like, just like arriving at some kind of, like, like, I want. I want to just arrive and be this thing. It's like, it's. It's building a lifelong career, and you start with whatever you can do, you know?
Yeah, that's what I would. That's my reflection on what you guys just said.
[01:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think that's a. That's a beautiful way to end the interview. And it's. It's been such an honor to chat with you about growing up in Arkansas and understanding your. Your early artistic ambitions and where that led you into New York and. And Thruple and just finding confidence, as we said. I think that was a great through line to this interview. And. And we all have a lot to learn from you, and you're doing such great things, and we're. We're ready to see Ronita Rambo in theaters. I'll just say that.
[01:05:05] Speaker A: Thank you so much. This has been so fun. I really appreciate you both and I'm looking forward to being your fan as well. So thank you for all the kindness and for letting me talk for a bit. I appreciate it.
[01:05:17] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And hoping you can come to the festival, too. That'll be great.
[01:05:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that.
[01:05:21] Speaker C: Thanks for hopping on, man.
[01:05:22] Speaker A: Yay. Of course. No problem. Thank you, guys.
[01:05:28] Speaker C: Did you learn something? I'm like your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050 Fest on Instagram. And I think we have a TikTok. I don't know. Go check it out. Okay, bye.
