Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I had a very romantic sense of what role the artist or the screenwriter or the director played in the Hollywood system.
And my biggest kind of takeaway was that every single person who can finance your work is at risk of being fired for financing your work.
And they have an 18 month plan themselves, they've got a board of directors themselves, they have three bosses.
And so if you do not conceive of yourself as a part of a system where the person who takes a risk on you is actually taking a risk, is risking something themselves, then you're going to be arrogant and narcissistic and you're not going to realize the degree to which you need to bring something to the table that they can find their own way to be excited about. And you can't just be this artist who says, like, trust me, I got it.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld.
[00:00:59] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey.
[00:01:04] Speaker C: 50% business, 50% creative.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new how to.
[00:01:08] Speaker C: That was the voice of filmmaker Jack Lawrence Mayer, who in true 5050 fashion, walks us through the tips and tricks he's picked up during his time toggling the line between indie and commercial filmmaking.
Jack was also the editor of Luke Matthews. Tricks can go wrong. As this episode rounds out our three part series interviewing the creative team behind the film. Enjoy the episode.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: I think this is like a, this is a problem with our whole generation is like we weren't trained how to really be like coercive and hierarchical. So like our pets have figured out how to totally fucking game.
[00:01:48] Speaker C: Oh, totally, totally.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: No. You are going to feed me that chicken breast.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:53] Speaker C: So they've been eating chicken forever. I mean, just, you know, as long as there's no salt in it, it's. It's fine. I guess.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: I mean, but before though, it was like rude what we were.
Yeah. You know, and like still like the. It's like now dog animal food looks like normal food.
[00:02:10] Speaker C: It's like, why hasn't it always looked like that?
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Like, why did it look like that before? You know?
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Have you seen that commercial? That's like there's like this sad looking dog and it's like, what if you got fed burnt bullshit. Your whole life? How would you feel?
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Probably not good, you know, like.
[00:02:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
So Jack, it's lovely to have you on the podcast.
We share a mutual friend in Luke Matthews. Right. That's how we originally got introduced.
That's right.
And how do you know him? Because we know him from Luke how did you even get in touch with Luke?
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Through Arthur. Through a mutual friend. Arthur, he's in comedy. You helped Luke with his film, right? You edited.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So Luke's first feature, Tricks Can Go Wrong, I was the editor for. And you know, it was kind of a weird time because it was December, January 2023, that I met him. January 2023, somewhere right around there. And I don't know if you all remember that time, but there was a kind of a mini recession in the industry. It was pre strike, but everyone was kind of anticipating the strike. And so all of a sudden there was just no work. I remember I went like three, four months, no good gigs. I was kind of doing bad corporate stuff.
And I hear about Folin, his producer, looking for an editor, and I think, God, this pay is so bad. All I have to do is read the script and watch the sizzle reel and it's going to be bad and I won't like it.
[00:03:51] Speaker C: And it's an easy no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: And I just loved what Luke was doing, man. I was just totally into his project. I think most indie filmmakers are so desperate to lie to you about how much money they have. And Luke was just like, now I'm going to tell you the straight up truth. This movie is funny and honest and dark. And yeah, I was a big fan.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: He's also just fearless. Right? Like he is just, I mean, just telling us stories from what set was like. And even we had Josh on the podcast and from his perspective, just, it seemed like that, like Luke was just. You couldn't deny that he, you knew exactly what he was going to do and he was going to execute his vision, you know.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think both of us came from a place of having a little bit of an older school ideal of the kind of filmmaker we want to be, the kind of films we want to make, which is kind of, you know, that type of filmmaker doesn't really exist anymore. So we both had a little bit of that nostalgic sense of like, man, wouldn't it be great to be like if we had like a bunch of Kelly Reichardt still, like somebody who makes like, you know, a million dollar film every three years. We had that kind of like model in our head of the ideal. And now everyone who does that is like over 50.
[00:05:04] Speaker C: So why. Yeah, why has that model gone out? Out the door, out the back door? Like, why do we think?
[00:05:12] Speaker A: I mean, oh, man, you're starting out with the hardest question of all I know.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:16] Speaker C: Really just going to the deep end right away.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: But I mean, like, there's some stuff that just makes some sense as far as the way data and analytics have changed every industry. You don't have to risk if you don't want to. I mean, I think recently Zaslav said something like, it's foolish to ever put out a movie unless you know how much money it's going to make before you put it out.
And so.
[00:05:37] Speaker C: Which is like. Yeah.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: And you know, you know, like in a totally free market in like the 70s would be a great example of this. Like, when the Paramount code ended and when indie studio started coming about, there was genuinely a knife fight for audience eyes and so weird artists. I think Frank Zappa said this. They were like, the guy with the suit is like, I don't know what kids like. Maybe they like Frank Zappa. I'll give Frank Zappa some money. Zappa will do his thing, and if that works, I'll make money too. Right. And so there's a lot of guesswork and there's a lot of guys who are in suits and they kind of are just trying to grasp at what, like the kids like and they accidentally finance really interesting artists. And that still happens to a degree, but, like, it's so much more predictable now. What's going to make money? What's going to make bank, what's going to do well on the international market?
The.
The revenue streams have changed so much that, like, honestly, people like me who might go see, like, you know, who get excited and see Cali Records the movie on like, weekend one, there's just not a lot of us. We can't really sustain a lot of Kelly Reicharts.
And like, even I did it with like, the AMC pass. I don't even know if my ticket counted because it was part of my $28 a month AMC pass. I go for free. So I. I could talk about this literally for the entire hour. But I think there's. I think largely, it's just we.
We saw the end of one type of distribution economy in the 90s and early 2000s, and it took about 10 years to catch on that distributing a film according to the old model and financing a film according to the old model was going to be an increasingly perilous endeavor.
[00:07:09] Speaker C: Yeah. There's also just more stuff out there. Right. So it makes sense that there are fewer people who are going to go see the. The new, you know, million dollar budget movie week one. Right. Because people are watching YouTube and people are watching. You know, there's also all this Space for people to, like, self generate art, you know, that there wasn't before.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: Yeah, Self curation, self generation. You can stream movies at home. You can stream any movie that's ever existed whenever you want.
And, you know, that's not all bad, but I mean, I actually had a. I had a pilot for a while that was.
Got picked up twice, died twice, but it was called. It was based on the Walter Benjamin essay from the 30s called the work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction.
And I don't know if you're familiar with the essay, but it was written in 1935. And its basic premise is once we get to the point technologically where art can be reproduced easily and it's always accessible and you can basically see it anytime you want, wherever you want, and there's no class barriers. It's not, you know, rich and poor. Light can see art instantly. Once that happens, aura will be lost. The sense of, like, joy or excitement or thrill will be lost. And he's saying this 90 years ago, and I feel like he's describing precisely what first Netflix and then YouTube and then TikTok kind of subsequently did.
[00:08:32] Speaker C: I think we're getting that now. Right. I feel like now is like kind of the exact moment where art is so, like, it used to be like, you know, 10 years ago we were saying, oh, you can film with your phone now and do that. But that wasn't fully, like, actually able to execute. And now there are truly no barriers for there.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: There are no barriers to create, but there are still barriers to be great. You know? That's true.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Right. So, like. Yeah, like, there's art everywhere and it's incredibly saturated. But I will tell you firsthand, out of the thousand submissions of short films I watch a year.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: Not every single one of those is the best thing I've ever seen.
[00:09:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: You know, and the few that are great make me feel something, make me feel scared or happy. You know, Like, I. I like the ones that cut through the noise are incredible, you know.
[00:09:25] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: And good stuff still gets made all the time. I mean, you know, this. This very week, I think I saw one battle after another. I saw the Mastermind. I saw. It was just an accident in Jafar Panahi film. So this is not a matter of good stuff can't get made. It's more about one. Like, what is the consumer or audience's relationship to what's getting made? You know, are we going to, like, a Patreon model where we're actually supporting the artists we like because the old. And then the other question is just like, what do we do with this fact that there's just so much stuff.
Like I.
I think about how when I was in college, I was a big Andrew Bujowski fan. I don't know if you like, like, know his film Support the Girls, Beeswax, mutual appreciation. Kind of like Godfather Mumblecore.
And his third film, Beeswax was coming out when I was a senior in college and I was a cinema studies major. I wanted to write an essay about this movie. And the only way I could do that was to get in a car and drive from Chicago to Detroit to watch its screen. A one night only screening at an art museum in Detroit.
And I am so fucking glad I did that because he's like, that entire experience was transformational. I tell that story 15 years later now. The ease with which I would have seen that movie also, it also has a lot to do with the ease with which I would have forgotten about that movie after I saw it.
Right? Kind of.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: What. What was so special about that experience? Was it simply the screening? Was he there? What was it? The drive? Like, what was so.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: It was the. Honestly, it was the fact that I had to try pretty hard. I mean, I think that, I mean, yeah, he was there. That was cool. I got to see it. You know, his film, his films didn't used to get wide distributions. He used to take them on city by city tours because that was the only way he could afford to get his films out there. So part of it was just the scarcity. It's kind of like, you know, like people talk about this and like the music fans talk about this all the time. Like the actual enjoyment of scarcity, of like getting to see something other people didn't get to see of like. Yeah, you know, like driving to like another city for a concert or like staying up all night to get like a one. We kind of have this model now where like things are either so easy, they're instantly accessible, or people are like intentionally doing shit that's kind of bespoke and difficult. Right. I mean, you see like Thousand Beavers, this movie that's been distributing this year.
[00:11:58] Speaker C: No.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Oh, man. So these guys self distributed this film called A Thousand Beavers and it's just insane. Charlie Chaplin as comedy about a man who's hounded by thousands of men, like beavers who are just guys dressed in beaver costumes.
And they were like, you know what? Most film festivals suck. Most distribution networks suck. Word of mouth is our only chance. So they would go one city at a time and just show up with like 50 people in Beaver outfits and just like do a stunt, like do like a circus, like stunt in public, like in hot, like on Hollywood Boulevard and then hand out fires to see their movie. And it worked because.
Right. You like, you notice that like literally there's, there's kind of a friction point there where you have to stop and you have to engage. So I don't know. So long story short, I think as a filmmaker myself and as a consumer of films, I'm just thinking a lot about how most media consumption is fairly passive. And what we're looking for is the smaller audience that is more active and willing to seek you out. Because that has to be, as far as I'm concerned, that has to be the model.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Independent filmmakers.
[00:13:10] Speaker C: Right. Well, it's like, how do you create that sort of like sustainable model that can actually be not even profitable, but just like makes sense. When you were saying that, the scarcity sort of notion, I immediately thought, I go and see a lot of theater and I think about how you have to go because it might not ever be put up again or this cast and this director in the show might not be put up again and it's not going to go on streaming afterwards. You don't have that excuse to, oh, I'll see it another time when it's home. So it's like, how do you create a moment out of your, out of your art, you know?
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, I started out in Chicago theater and my first, it's actually funny, my first big kind of creative project. We got this grant when I graduated to start this theater company called Screen Door.
And the idea that I had back then was, oh, when you go to see low budget theater, everyone's having a great time. It feels like a party. Everyone's glad to be there. You feel cool. And this is in Chicago. Maybe it's different city to city, but it was a scene to go to live theater. Yeah, but you go to the indie movie houses and it felt like eating your vegetables. You know, you show up, you watch the movie, maybe there's a Q and A that nobody cares about. You leave, there's no joy, there's no interesting. Yeah. And so we started this theater company called Screen Door. And the idea was to start making low budget movies, but building them live in a theater space.
And we would have a band play afterward. We wouldn't kick you out. There'd be a bar that was open, we'd have trailers before the show, which was other theater companies coming in and doing like, two minute.
[00:14:50] Speaker C: Oh, that is cool.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: That is previewing their shows. And the whole idea was like, this was at the Advent. This was 2012. Right. So Netflix is brand new. Streaming is brand new. I think House of cards comes out 2013. And so there's this tension between, hey, I can watch stuff alone whenever I want.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: Mm.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: Or I can go out and be with people. And there's actually a tug of war. Both are kind of attractive to. To me, being alone and staying up all night and watching Orange is the New Black alone feels suddenly like it's this thing I've never been able to do before. But now that we're 10, 12 years into this project, my thesis is that most people will choose watching stuff alone, but it won't make them happy. So what I'm looking for is, like, how do I connect with audiences that realize this isn't making them happy and actually are now saying, like, okay, so what I need is less choice, less freedom, less ability to watch things alone.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: There. There's so many parallels to music with. With touring specifically.
We spoke to Ava, maybe our friend who was on American Idol recently.
Super talented singer, songwriter, and she's an indie musician.
Conan has been holding out on signing because she loves having control of her. Of her records, basically.
And she, I think, just came off of her own tour around America and was playing theaters like the Fonda, or maybe it's not the Fonda. What are, like, smaller. Why? What is it?
[00:16:18] Speaker C: The Roxy. Roxy.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: Spots like that.
[00:16:21] Speaker C: 100, 200 smaller.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: She seems like, oh, like there's. There was no one there, and we're like 300 people. Like, that's. That's a lot of people. And I wonder if the same applies for film or if there's a world where, like, we could almost look at music touring and be like, okay, you know, Jack has a new movie coming out and, like, he's very. Is looking to hit this very specific niche kind of audience. And, like, instead of playing at AMCs or, like, some massive theaters and expecting whatever, it's like he's being much more intentional and calculated doing a tour with.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: Your film or something like that.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Yeah, but I think even. I don't know, because I know people do that, obviously, but I wonder if there's like a more intentional, calculated way again. I'm sure people are doing that.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: Well, you know, one thing we've talked about is. So I.
This is. We've talked about kind of the Rolling Thunder review, the, like, Dylan model Of like, it's not one filmmaker. It's like a gaggle of five filmmakers who operate under some kind of collective name and tour every year. So, you know, like, you know that once a year, you know, the early stage is going to roll in and they're going to take over the, like, indie theater for a five day weekend. And you're kind of looking forward to that because last year you saw like.
[00:17:38] Speaker C: A. Yeah, like a residency situation almost.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: That's.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: I think that's an awesome idea.
[00:17:43] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: And it takes, you know, one or two films, you know, and like, one of the reasons I've been talking about it with another filmmaker, buddy of mine, Jacob Hertz Goodman, is, is that he's somebody who's gotten some notoriety on the doc side of things. Like, he has a fan base, a following.
I think he's recently like on the Andrew Callahan Show. So he's like somebody who, like, it's not, you know, it's not, you know, buy a house money. But he's got his fan base, but he's trying to do narrative now and people are not interested in paying him for narrative because doc is kind of where the money is.
[00:18:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: And so this would be perfect for him because he's got folks in every city who follow his Instagram, read his blog, watch all his shit, but none of those people are paying him to make his narrative because they're all the fans.
So, you know, he made like, I executive produced his first feature film and we're gearing up right now to have like a private premiere in la. And from there we're deciding like, do we actually want to submit to festivals? Do we think festivals still have value?
Obviously, if you submit to a festival, it already doesn't have value. The only value a festival has is if you've prearranged getting accepted to the festival.
Unless that value is simply like you, like, you like, you know, getting a lot of drinks with a bunch of other mutual appreciation filmmakers. But if you're actually trying to make some money, there's not a lot of value in the festival market as far as I'm concerned, for a feature. So we're trying to figure out, you know, is that a tour, is that streaming, is that, you know, the star of the film is like also the head of the strippers co op in la? And so we're like, do we do something where we put on like, burlesque shows plus the movie?
[00:19:20] Speaker C: I would say that. Ding, ding, ding. I think that's like, that's a very unique way of going about it. I think that's pretty cool.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And all of this takes a little bit. All of this is harder. Right? I mean, it would just be easier to throw my movie up on Amazon.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: But I assume it goes back to intention. Like, is your goal with your work? Because we haven't even really spoken about you and your own work as a director.
Um, but as a director, like, with previous films, and, like, is your intention. Obviously, every film is different, but are you trying to get your film seen by as many people as possible in front of, like, a live audience? Or is it just as many eyeballs as possible, or is it not, and you just want a very specific audience seeing your work?
[00:20:01] Speaker A: You know, I think it's evolved. I think when I.
So my career is a little interesting because I had a lot of dumb luck early on. So when I was, like, 24, I made a pilot called Sing along for no money.
It was like, whoever wasn't on camera was holding the camera.
You know, it was often the boom is taped to the front of, like, a Sony X1 with a little plastic lens. And we make this. We shoot this comedy pilot and record the scores, like, all done on piano, recorded in my closet.
And I submitted to something called the Chicago Comedy Television tv. Chicago Comedy TV pilot competition. And I think the name of this festival is so bad, maybe I have a chance at winning this thing.
And I submit. One of the judges is a junior agent at uta. She calls me, she says, hey, actually, HBO has been looking for a show like the one that you made for a while.
And then she says, I'll call you back if you win. Which was a great foreshadowing of how this fucking industry works, because she was one of the three judges.
And so I win the festival, she calls me back, and within three months, I've sold the show to hbo. Within a year, we were filming the show in Chicago.
[00:21:19] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: And this was a very unique circumstance where this was. This was 2012. And HBO knew that streaming was becoming a thing. And their idea was, let's have streaming be where we do experimental comedy. It'll be kind of like our minor league system, you know? So I got, you know, maybe a tenth of the budget of an HBO show, but I got HBO's support. I got their infrastructure, I got their brand, I got, you know, their executive producers giving me notes.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: So did they surround you with creative collaborators or adults? Or is it they.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: They tasked us with two producers. They tasked us with two producers who were the adults.
[00:21:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
Got it.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: Unit production manager. I Think was the. The official title of the adults in the room.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: So you graduated school and then what were you doing before this? Like, making. Were you making stuff? Making pilot specifically, or. This was like.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: So, I mean, the whole thing started with the kind of the simplest thing. I was like, I was making theater in high school. I went to college for theater.
The digital cameras become so ubiquitous, anyone can get one. My mom's is on Social Security disability. I get a little check when I turn 18. I buy a camera.
My friends are all improv, like, in the improv world. And starting, like, sophomore year of college, we start doing this thing where we start doing a web series. And this is back, like, pre YouTube. So, like, when I'm talking about web series, I'm talking about you build a website and then you embed QuickTime Player files into the website.
Funny or Die started streaming videos midway through our run. Like. Like, this was like. I think at the time, we're on the cusp of that.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: The only web series I know was like, Michael. Sarah had one with his buddy called, like, Michael and Brian or some. In, like, 2011.
[00:23:09] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: And so we're doing this in college, and what we do is we shoot it every Saturday.
I edited on Sundays, and then we meet on Wednesdays to write the next episode. There's five of them, us, and we just rotate who writes this week. Who writes this week.
[00:23:21] Speaker C: Awesome.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: It's two thirds improvised, a third scripted.
And, like, this is like, the height of, like, mumble core 1.0. So we're all just.
[00:23:30] Speaker C: Was everyone.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: Was everyone in the group working at that time? And it was just kind of like.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: No, this was in college.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Oh, this is in. This is.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: So this is what we're doing in college. And then we graduate.
We graduate into the. The recession. I graduated in 2010.
Everyone in Chicago works for Groupon. That's what every single one of us had the same job that was working for Groupon, everybody.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: There's stories from that.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because they hired comedy writers. That was their whole thing. Like, they, like, Groupon was like, we want every comedian and improviser in the greater Chicago area. So we all got Groupon jobs.
[00:24:02] Speaker C: And why. Sorry, why are they wanting to hire comedians?
[00:24:06] Speaker A: I don't know if y' all are even old enough to really remember Groupon, but they had this whole idea that they're brand was going to be, like, quirky, offbeat, conversational, eccentric.
And so they were based in Chicago and they kind of. They just decided that that was going to be their tactic. And there was the massive recession, and we were all broke, so we all took copywriting jobs at Groupon.
And so. But, you know, rent was also, like $300 a month, so, like, it was pretty easy to be broke.
And so, yeah, we shot it at nights and weekends, you know, so. So anyway, so college graduates and I basically take the same model we had in college of like, hey, there's five of us. We write the script. Once we do one rewrite, we mostly improvise it. And whoever's not in a scene holds the camera. I'm the filmmaker of the group. Everyone else is the comedians. That's kind of the trade off.
And I say, let's do that same thing. Let's just do it now.
Like, now that we've graduated, let's do it for real. Let's try to win a festival. Let's try to sell a show.
And I didn't even have time to, like, think about whether this is a good or bad idea, because within a year, I'm making the show for hbo and I'm like, oh, this is it. Making TV is easy. I've got it. I'm in the gestalt. I've got my finger on the pulse.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: And so as we're making the show, it's called Single Long, and it's still on HBO Max. Now you can see, baby, you can see me in it. I was the star of it as well.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:25:30] Speaker A: And as we're making it, Netflix drops House of Cards.
And suddenly, overnight, every major network decides, you know what? Streaming is not the place for low budget, experimental developing young talent taking risks on weird scripts.
[00:25:53] Speaker C: Streaming is premium now.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, streaming is premium now. And so before we even released, HBO pulled the marketing budget for all of their streaming. There were four of us. There are four streaming shows, and all four of them, we all got released, but we didn't get a single advertisement, a single billboard, a single. Like, all of the marketing was scrapped because they changed their mind about what online was. Between the time we shot the show and we released it.
And so witnessing that and then kind of moving to LA and realizing that living in la, if you wanted to make some money and be in television, which is what I was at the time, meant, nobody ever sees your shit. If you look at my mdb, there's just this missing blank five years where I was making a lot of money selling TV shows that didn't get made.
[00:26:44] Speaker C: And then the job right there.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: And then I was like. And then. And then kind of. To answer your question, I was like, well, is, is making, is writing something that I'm doing just to like make an income or am I like an artist doing this? Because there's something in me that kind of has to.
And I started taking more and more risks and started doing indie film. But that means that I'm also like, I'm now at the point where like I spend more hours a year doing non film stuff to make money in order to have the films that I make be more independent.
[00:27:25] Speaker C: Right.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: And so that was, that was kind of a. I don't know if I'd call it conscious. I was 25 and arrogant. I just kind of thought I'd be able to be Paul Thomas Anderson by now. Yeah, that was my, that my actual premise was that I could just be pta.
But now that I've gotten older and a little wiser, I'm like, oh yeah, that's what I did. I stopped trying to write as mainstream stuff. I started directing my own stuff. I started insisting on kind of not doing shit that I hated.
And that put me in this place where the work I do I really love. But I only make a movie every couple years now.
[00:27:57] Speaker C: What are some of the overall takeaways from that whole time with HBO and getting that sort of like quick right out of school shot to success?
[00:28:10] Speaker A: I think the, I mean, takeaways is an interesting question. I mean one, I guess my biggest takeaway is that I came as an outsider. You know, I, like, I'm not my, my parents are both lawyers, so I came with like money and support in that sense. Like I had that kind of privilege. But I didn't have any industry connections. I came from Chicago, I came from theater. I had a very romantic sense of what role the artist or the screenwriter or the director played in the Hollywood system.
And my biggest kind of takeaway was.
[00:28:46] Speaker C: That.
[00:28:48] Speaker A: Every single person who can finance your work is at risk of being fired for financing your work.
And they have an 18 month plan themselves, they've got a board of directors themselves, they have three bosses. And so if you do not conceive of yourself as a part of a system where the person who takes a risk on you is actually taking a risk is risking something themselves, then you're going to be arrogant and narcissistic and you're not going to realize the degree to which you need to bring something to the table that they can find their own way to be excited about. And you can't just be this artist who says, like, trust me, I got it.
[00:29:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: Unless by some chance you've miraculously, you know, accidentally made a shitload of money on your first thing and you get a little bit of a grace period.
You have to conceive of yourself not as like a special artist, but as somebody who's working in a system where everyone feels a sense of scarcity above you.
People above you feel more scarcity than you feel. Right. And that was a thing that I did not have the tools for at all. I kind of thought, like, I make good. You like my, you saw my, I have a proven track record of making, let me make some more.
[00:30:00] Speaker B: So then when, when you are, I guess, in a hypothetical sense, pitching to a studio or, or just when you're kind of in that phase of like trying to get people on board with the film and not going about it with this pretentious arrogance of I'm an artist, I'm the best, this is the best movie you've ever seen. Like, you better make this thing. Like, are you, are you giving them or having creative conversation with them of like, oh, that's a really good thought about this character story. Like, are you like letting them put their hands on it or in it? Or like, what exactly does does letting them feel involved actually entail without compromising your own vision and being. Because obviously you still need some confidence in yourself to be like, this script is ready. Like, this is the prod, this is the product. Like, you know, so how do you kind of tell that lie?
[00:30:54] Speaker A: I'm going to answer your question in a slightly different way, but I hope it gets to the answer, which is that I, I don't actually think the dynamic has as much to do with what happens when you bring the script that you've written or the idea that you have to people and they like it.
I think the bigger question and the bigger, the bigger lesson is that for the most part, like I write a script, right, I think it's really good. I send it to somebody at FX or I send it to somebody at HBO or I send it to somebody at Ridley Scott's company, wherever it may be, they read the script.
And typically, if you can get honest feedback, if you can ask for honest feedback, you'll start to learn things like, oh, you know What? We've got three shows in development that have a white 17 year old girl as the lead. Next year you've written a show with a white 17 year old lead. So I cannot engage with this. And so it's not about trying to fight that note. It's about then saying, okay, you like my writing?
Do you have any books or articles you're trying to adapt right now? Do you have any. Do you have any IP that you don't have a writer for? Do you have any newspaper articles that you read recently that you think would be a good movie? Do you have any scripts that you think, like, hit a wall and need somebody to rewrite? Yeah, so it's more about, hey, this is my voice. This is what I bring. This is my vibe.
I get why you're not going to make this movie. I get why you're not going to produce this show.
But now we can work together on something, and you're going to trust that I've got this approach, this voice, this sense of humor, this intelligence, so that if you give me something that you could get greenlit, that you. That you can get made, that you have enthusiasm from above already, you can trust me, that I'm going to be the one to execute that really well.
[00:32:38] Speaker C: That's. That's a. Yeah, that's great. First of all. And that's. That's exactly how it works from my purview. I work at a production company right now, and that's. That's the way that we interact with writers. You know, it's like this. This one's not for us because X, Y, Z. But we love your voice. And we have this Business Insider article that we have interest from our home studio with or whatever it is. You know, like, it's things like that that really, in my mind, the producer is kind of the access to the. We don't have the money, but we're the access to the money and we're the access to the studio, and we have that sort of like, for lack of a better term, like inside scoop on what they want or how we can frame things to really have a better chance of selling it.
And ideally, the writer doesn't have to sacrifice creating creative integrity, at least when talking with us. And we can be kind of like the creative consultant in a way.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: Right. You know, and I don't know, tell me if I'm wrong here, but I imagine you get a lot of writers who get that feedback in a general, and you just never hear from them again. Yeah, they would slink away being like, man, they didn't. They didn't buy my script.
[00:33:46] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: And I say that because I used to be one of them. Like, that's. That is a. That is a. That is something that I have done too many times.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: But yeah. So is it about. Is it about shifting perspective of being like, okay, I'm gonna write something.
One script. That's great. And I can use that as knowing, like, hey, yeah, I would love this to get made. But, like, realistically, hey, that might happen. But also, it. It might not. And if it doesn't, then, like, at least it's a. It's a great representation of my voice and, like, being okay with that and allowing that to kind of.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I feel conflicted about some of this because I, I. I feel like maybe when I'm able to look back in another 20 years, I can answer that better. But that's my instinct. You know, I'll say this. I'm in a situation right now.
I can't really name names, but I have. I have a script that had financing attached. So basically, I had a script where I had these two financiers. One of them had left Universal and started their own company. Company. And they had a first look deal with Hulu. Right. And so they read a script of mine. We have this initial call. They say, this thing's great. We want to be the producers of it. We know that you already have talent attached. You just need the money.
We're so happy to have met you in the third act. We would love it if you could just kind of find a moment that more clearly helps us understand, like, what the fuck we've just been through in this movie. Like, there's a little bit. They basically said something vague about, like, how the ending, they felt just a little bit of a lack of a sense of being able to grasp it. Right.
And so I go back and I do a rewrite for about, you know, six weeks or something like that. I really kind of contemplate it. I send it back over to them.
And the script is, you know, it's.
It's a relationship drama that involves, like, an affair, but it's this kind of complicated thing where there's no, you know, there's no good guys or bad guys. You kind of feel for the person who's having the affair, and it's. It's the wife, which is a little bit more atypical.
And so I send him the rewrite, and he calls me a second time, and they're the Universal guy.
And he says, can I ask you something? I said, sure. And he says, are you a sold writer?
And I said, a sold writer? I don't know that term. And he says, have you sold scripts before? And I said, yeah, yeah, I've sold scripts.
And he says, ah, okay. Because, you know, when I read your script, this Reads like somebody who is a. Really knows how to write. Well, you're a great writer, but it seems like you're trying to do something where this one is more daring and creative and experimental and maybe a little more out there than you usually do.
And, you know, maybe you're a little bored with writing conventional scripts. And this one, you're trying to push it.
And I just thought that was, like, one of the dumbest things anybody.
[00:36:38] Speaker C: Really weird feedback.
[00:36:40] Speaker A: And he was basically just like. This time he was a little bit more direct with me. He was like, the ending is morally ambiguous. I don't know whether this woman did something good or bad. And I don't think I can sell it based on. I don't think my finances will prove this because people don't know what to make of the ending.
And in this particular project, I thought to myself, you know, I asked him a couple questions of, like, would this work? Would this work? Would this. This work? But ultimately, I was like, the whole reason I make movies is because I really love the feeling when an audience leaves a theater and they disagree.
[00:37:10] Speaker C: It's those car conversations, you know? I get it.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: Yep. And I was like, I'm not going to prescribe. I'm not going to prescribe whether you like or dislike the main character. I'm not going to prescribe whether or not her husband is, like, sympathetic or pathetic. You know, that is.
I'm trying to entertain you. Like, I'm not trying to be, like, a stubborn. It's funny, it's entertaining, it's stressful, it's thrilling. I think you walk out of the movie and want to see it again, but under no circumstances am I going to dumb down this ending.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: And so that was. That was February. It's October now.
I'm currently looking at making the same movie at about a tenth of the budget with a different company so that I don't have to do the rewrite. So that. There is a line.
[00:37:48] Speaker C: Yeah, there is a line. And it's also.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:37:52] Speaker C: It's not a.
I don't mean to, like, discount it, but it's not a bigger deal than it is, you know, like, it's.
[00:37:58] Speaker B: It.
[00:37:59] Speaker C: It's one script. It happens. There are, like. There are people who want to make it, you know, and it's just about, like, finding, you know, where you draw that line per project, you know?
[00:38:11] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: How do you. How do you find that. That confidence? So, like, as a filmmaker, understanding how insane this landscape is and how rare it is for someone to even be, like, for first of all, this script is, like, actually good. And then more than that, like, this can, like, really be turned into something and made and put energy and resources behind. How do you get to a point? Or how. How can, like, a young filmmaker have a conversation with a financier who's like, hey, we love this, but, like, the ending needs to change.
Like, how, How. I don't even know how to. How to ask this, but of like.
Or how you could answer it too, but of just, like, how do you find the confidence to be like, the script is good and someone else will make this when it's right?
[00:38:59] Speaker C: And I'm sure you've made sacrifices in the past. You know, you've taken those notes that might not be the best notes or that you agree with and you've applied them. So I'm sure it's a push and pull a lot of the time.
[00:39:11] Speaker A: There is a little bit of truth in the sense that I realized pretty early on that if you don't love writing conventional stuff, you're actually not as good at it.
I really do believe that. I think that the people who write the best rom coms love the shit out of rom coms. Yeah, I think that sounds naive, but the longer I've been in la, the more I've actually seen that to be true. And so part of it is just knowing, like, hey, man, if I try to do what you're asking for, you're also not going to like it. And I've seen that happen before and it's gonna. And I. I would rather you say, this is great, but I. It feels risky than say, hey, you actually. This is kind of mediocre. I'm not that into this. Like, I'm just simply uninspired and having.
Having attempted. I think, you know, basically everyone needs one, right? I had one big project that, in order to make sure it stayed alive, I compromised and compromised and compromised and compromised until, like, I was sitting on the set being like, it was not until I was on set directing this fucker.
[00:40:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: That I was like, this is not.
[00:40:08] Speaker C: You're like, what is this movie? Like, what? Like, yeah, yeah.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: And this was a TV show. This is pilot.
[00:40:14] Speaker C: There's another pilot.
[00:40:14] Speaker A: But it was just like, I was down in Austin in 2016 directing this pilot and thinking, this is bad. What I'm going to deliver is bad. And it's bad because I've been too agreeable and too afraid.
[00:40:30] Speaker C: And only, you know, that, you know, they. They're just making notes like, it's you. Yeah.
[00:40:36] Speaker A: And So I. I just decided I didn't want to make that mistake again.
Like, if I was gonna up, I didn't want to up in that direction again.
[00:40:45] Speaker C: Totally.
[00:40:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, but no, I mean, I think one thing I. I actually would give myself a note on again. I keep answering my buddy Jacob Hertz Goodman. He's an incredible filmmaker. I was, I was going to a pitch meeting with the financier for the movie I was telling you about that I'm now going to do for like the 10th of the budget. I was driving up to a pitch meeting a week ago to the house of the financier.
And on the drive up, I was getting into this bad headspace where I was just like, their notes are pretty bad.
Some of them are kind of insane. This person doesn't seem that bright.
I don't know if I want to work with them.
And I was just like, why am I doing this? Why am I killing this project before I've even gotten to their house?
And so I called Jacob and I was like, hey, man, I'm going through this negative thing where I think if I walked through the door right now, I would just tell them to go themselves and leave. And that's bad. I don't want to do that.
Talk me out of it. Talk me off this cliff.
And he's.
He's financing a big documentary right now that has to do with like, AI and some real heavy stuff.
And he's getting financed by people who have very outwardly a different political project than he has. And he kind of knows that in their. In their financing of him.
And he just kind of told me the story. He was like, you know, I sat down at the pitch meeting and I wanted to tell them how we, me and them both had the same big picture goals and that my idea was the best way to do what they want to do. And again, sounds like a cliche, but just over and over and over again insisting that, like, hey, our differences are about tactics.
Like, where we disagree is about tactics.
[00:42:30] Speaker C: Not about the end product, not about.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: The end product, not about the values. And even if that's not entirely true, you have to be able to tell that story to the person who has the ability to green light or not. And you have to be able to get buy in in that sense.
I actually was working recently with. I probably. I definitely shouldn't say name. I was working recently with somebody who produces the films of, like, a very, very famous filmmaker. And he gave me advice that startled me where he was just like, yeah. Like, what I do is I just lie to their face incessantly until I get the money.
And I was like, I don't have that in me. I can't quite get there.
I can't just, I can't just sit in a relationship and do it in bad faith.
[00:43:07] Speaker C: Right, Right.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: But I like, but this guy is responsible for some great movies getting made.
So I wouldn't say why outright, but I would say, you know, really what it's about is like, can you find a way of reminding your financer, the person who can greenlight you, whoever it is, that like, you are already aligned.
[00:43:29] Speaker C: But you're on the same team?
[00:43:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're on the same team. And your ideas might actually advance their idea a little better than their ideas. That's why you're there.
[00:43:36] Speaker B: How has your pitching evolved over the years? Like, if you look back to when you were 25, I guess, post HBO to today, like, I'm sure maybe you even laugh at what you were saying back then.
[00:43:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: Can you talk about what that was and where, where you're at now?
[00:43:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, part of it was I, I. Part of it is actually taking on more traditional elements of a pitch and not trying to reinvent the wheel.
I would say the main one is the kind of asking myself authentically and not going out until I can answer it, why now? And why me? Right? Because if you say, like, I've got this great idea for like, this World War II aliens movie, I guarantee you there's somebody out there right now who can write a better World War II aliens movie than me. Like, they've done it before. They love it. They love World War II history, they love sci fi, whatever it is.
And they could even come up with, like, enough of a reason for why people want to see this movie right now, why an end of the world apocalypse movie is good right now. So my biggest difference in pitching, again, I think it goes back to this idea of really being sympathetic to the position of the person on the other side of the table is to, like, one, just really try to be sexy. Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to avoid being sexy. Right. I mean, so first it's just saying, like, what is the sexiest hook? What is the thing that I can say first?
And it's. I kind of think of it as like a highlight line. That's not the log line, that's not the beginning of the summary, but that's the framing device. That's the thing that's going to make you feel a feeling. Feeling.
So one, can I instill that feeling? And then two, once that's instilled, can I give you enough of an overview where you don't feel lost? And then three, can I talk with a lot of passion about why I'm the person to tell this story and I'm the only person to tell it, and why this story is something the market wants right. Not only right now, but will want in six months, like, what's happening on this earth, such that this story is going to be extremely relevant when it's made.
[00:45:33] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:45:34] Speaker A: And I used to really. I mean, I used to really think more just about the kind of quality of the narrative I was trying to tell. You know, I think it was really. It was really just more of an earnest sense of like, let me tell a good story. Whereas now I'm like, let me help you market this. Let me help you talk.
[00:45:52] Speaker C: Totally. I think you need. As a filmmaker these days, you need to also understand how to be a marketer in a way. You need to. And I actually haven't heard that part of obviously, the why me is like the biggest part of a pitch always. I've learned for years now. But the why now is really interesting.
That's something that, in my mind when. Where. When the producer comes onto the pitch, you start framing that and understanding why. Like, those are conversations that I hear between producers and studios of people are obsessed with this topic right now. This is why this needs to happen now. But for a writer to be saying that, I think that's a really interesting framework.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, perhaps.
Yeah, and I think that's. That's interesting to hear as well, because, you know, if I. If I have an insecurity, it's about trying to solve too many of other people's problems rather than focusing on what I do well. So there might actually be some drawback in what I just said, but in my experience, that has gotten the warmest receptions and the most kind of, you know, yeses.
[00:46:54] Speaker C: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, we. We've talked about marketing a lot on this episode. Weirdly, I think we. We.
[00:47:00] Speaker B: No, but it. It is. It's really interesting. I mean, I. I almost want to, like, dig into the pitch more and, like, ask for an. An example of, like, what that highlighted line is that, like, hooky, sexy kind of line? Like, is there an example of one that actually.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: Yeah, let me. Let me see if I can get this right real quick. I know, I know. Googling stuff on a podcast is always bad.
[00:47:21] Speaker C: Your Editing capabilities. You know.
[00:47:26] Speaker A: This is charming.
I'll give you two examples because they're going to make me quit and do this later. So one of them is, I was pitching a film.
It's interesting. This was a couple years before Oppenheimer happened, but I was pitching a film about Richard Feynman. Do you know who that is? So Richard Feynman was the 25 year old, excuse my language here, pussy hound on the Los Alamos project. He was like, wow. He was this massively sarcastic, funny, wisecracking physics teacher who like became known as this kind of celebrity later in his life at Cornell for basically just everything that moved. And he's just this very funny guy seen as like one of the great teachers in American history.
And if you see a photo of this guy when he's 25 years old, he looks like Elvis Presley mixed with like Sid Vicious, like a more punk rock Elvis Presley.
And so I would start out the pitch just by showing that photo because they know I'm gonna. They know that I'm going to come in and tell a story about World War II, about the invention of the atom bomb, about Los Alamos. They're kind of expecting something heavy. They're expecting something kind of grandiose. And I'm like, I want to tell a story about this little punk.
I want to tell a story about like some guy who, like, Jason Schwarzman could play way.
[00:48:39] Speaker B: So are you, you have it printed out? Are you on your phone or.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, I have it printed out. I kind of. And I have a couple of them. And so I just put the picture down. I say, this is Richard Feynman the year.
This is Richard Feynman, 25 years old, the year the atom bomb dropped, you know, and he's one of. He's the youngest scientist at Los Alamos Alamos.
And just by seeing that photo, you immediately. And this is a couple years ago, so I'm not nailing it right now, but you can immediately get that sense of like, this film is going to be a comedy. This film is going to be different. It's going to be a zag. It's going to be an angle I haven't seen.
It's going to be, you know, it's going to be everything that Oppenheimer was not.
Yeah, but like another example. And this would be a very different one. Like, I was pitching the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction. The, the, the, the kind of thing I was talking about earlier. Yeah, so that was. I, I wrote a sci fi. A Big sci fi high concept show based on that article that was kind of set in a world kind of the one we live in now and which kind of all media is instantly and constantly available to us. But we are all kind of isolated and we all, you know, we all work shitty jobs and feel broke all the time and just have media going constantly. So it's kind of the sci fi thing, but it had, like, an adventure story side to it. So when I would pitch that, I would start by saying, I'd like to tell you a story about my mom.
And I very briefly tell this story about. My mother is from the small town where West Virginia, Virginia and Kentucky all meet.
Nobody in her family's ever gone to college. It's the heart of Appalachia. She grows up in the kind of place where she thinks she's rich because her neighbors are eating dog food and buying it at the grocery store. It's truly fucking the white trash of America.
And.
And she saved her money working her high school job up every day until she could have enough when she graduated high school to go to Europe for two months and take a train and go all around and go to all these little spots.
And when I was a kid growing up, that was the stories that she told over and over and over again. The things she saw, the people she met, the adventures she had, the surprises that happened to her. And then I said, I'd like you to imagine if my mother had not had to save up that money for four years, if she hadn't had to get on a boat, if she hadn't had to get on a plane or a train. I would like you to imagine if she had been able to wake up one morning on a Saturday, turn on a television set, put on a VR headset, and have that exact precise experience that she had in Europe.
How meaningless it would be.
How little she would retell that story to other people, how. How little it would have impacted her life, how little it would have changed her.
And I want you to imagine an entire world that feels like that.
[00:51:33] Speaker C: It reminds me of you going from what was at Chicago to Detroit to see that filmmaker. You know, it's not. It's not dissimilar to that.
No.
[00:51:42] Speaker A: And it's. It's. There's. I didn't tell you anything about the log line or the plot or the characters, but I hopefully put you in a headspace where you're now, like, feeling the same thing I'm feeling.
[00:51:52] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: And it. How do you answer the. The.
[00:51:55] Speaker A: Why me?
[00:51:56] Speaker B: Without being I. I don't know the word there, but like an.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:52:05] Speaker A: I mean, sometimes it depends on the story. Right. Sometimes it's like this was based on my parents divorce.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, would you consider the why me to kind of be looped in with that last one of like, where it's like, I'm. I'm thinking about my mom here. Like, there's a subtext of like, this is a personal story in some way, or I'm seeing it through this certain lens.
[00:52:22] Speaker C: Like.
[00:52:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:22] Speaker B: Or is it very much, like, on the nose? Like, I dealt. Whatever hits.
[00:52:28] Speaker A: Like, I mean, I'll tell you the. Why me for this one. I mean, I had a couple, but the major ones were, hey. So my background is not.
I did. My background is not screenwriting or film school or like a master's at usc. I'm not a television writer. I don't have training as a television writer. My background is I went to University of Chicago. And so the one thing that I have that a lot of other people don't have is I had to read all these fucking academic texts, all these sociological texts. I had to, like, think about sociology and psychology and political science all the time. And what is sociology and political science when you get down to it? But. But high concept framing devices for high concept series.
And so, like, the first why me? Is I have this way of thinking about the world that I was trained in, and it gives me the ability to come up with high concept series.
High concept series pitches that other people just wouldn't ever think of because I've got this background in training. But then the other one is what we talked about earlier, which is that I was making a streaming show when streaming was invented, and I was trying to build out a theater company that made people force people to get back together and have an experience in the same room.
So I've been uniquely focused or fixated on what does it mean to watch stuff alone my entire career.
And I've been thinking about what it means for the artist. I've been thinking what it means for the consumer, for the viewer.
And I kind of came. I was born by fire in the age when people stopped going to movie theaters or stopped doing things in public.
And so I feel like I'm acutely ready to tell that story.
Something like that. I don't know. Now I feel like I'm doing the pitch.
[00:54:05] Speaker B: I feel.
[00:54:05] Speaker C: No, this is. This is like, this is great. I mean, I think our listeners, like, love this sort of thing where someone pulls up a pitch and does it or someone. Actually, when we've had people pitch projects on this show, it's been very engaging and successful. So it's exciting to hear that.
I'm curious for you, like, what is, what's the dream? Like, what in, you know, 10, 15 years, where ideally, what, what are you doing? You know, how are you making impact?
[00:54:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I, you know, I do think that independent film is at a transition point and people have been declaring the death of cinema for a hundred years. So I don't want to do that. Television, vhs, whatever.
But I do think we're at a transition point where a certain type of independent film that we, that I grew up loving and kind of seeing is like why I love movies. That those films are going to have to learn from theater and also learn from TikTok and Instagram. They're have to learn from the new media and old.
How to exist and transform from maybe something at the center of an industry to something that's a little bit more like a practice. You know, theater still exists in this country, it still makes people money in this country, but it's a cultural practice. This, it's not a industry that supports an entire middle class to be able to buy houses and have kids. Right. And that's what TV and film does.
And so I want to be part of the project of discovering how independent film evolves post streaming, post AI, post Covid.
And my hope is to be part of a project that brings people back into smaller theaters and smaller groups, building kind of smaller and more intentional communities.
Yeah, I mean, my hope is that that pays the bills right now. You know, I'm lucky enough to be able to like edit Ford truck commercials or occasionally, you know, do some like paralegal work. And that makes me live a nice middle class life. But like, it's not the films right now that are paying the bills. It has been in the past.
I'd like it to be again in the future. But my, my hope is that I can couple this thing I'm really passionate about.
You know, this is a, this is a little bit of a tangent, but, you know, everyone keeps talking about how one battle after another is about to lose $100 million. Right. I don't know if you've seen this. Right. And the calculation there is the box office international plus the cost of distribution and the cost of marketing.
I do think that indie film is dead if you can reap 200 million worldwide and have lost $100 million.
I do think that there has to be a different way of getting movies out There, whether it's just domestic distribution, whether it's bespoke distribution, one city at a time. But there's no chance we tell good stories.
If one battle after another's box office return is not enough stuff.
[00:57:13] Speaker C: That's insane. It's still insane to me that people think it's going to lose that much money. I mean, it's like, objectively like a successful movie in terms of the box office gross. So it's. It's just.
[00:57:25] Speaker A: There's still debate about whether Once Upon a Time in Hollywood recouped its losses because of the amount of cost to distribute a film. It's crazy. There's still just. And also, there's not a lot of transparency about, like, how much it actually costs.
[00:57:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:35] Speaker A: Like, there's active disagreement to this day about whether or not that movie was, like, made money or not. Did not make money. And that's.
[00:57:41] Speaker C: And I'm talking, obviously.
[00:57:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:43] Speaker C: Very influential movie. And. Yeah, yeah.
[00:57:46] Speaker A: You know, Can I tell one Paul Thomas Anderson anecdote real quick?
[00:57:51] Speaker C: Please, please.
[00:57:53] Speaker A: There's a kind of meeting I think you take when you're a young writer, when you move to la. That's like a hazing meeting where it's basically somebody telling you that you're a dumbass and all of your ideas are bad and they're trying to see whether or not you blink.
And I remember I met up with this young producer who was working, I think, at Anonymous Content at the time, and he says, what kind of career do you want to have? And I was like, you know what? I'm not trying to, like, get the biggest house or make the most money. I'd be amazing if I could make a movie every, like, three years. It was well financed, and that could be like, my. My life could just be making a movie every three or four years.
And he says, well, like what? Like pta. Like Paul Thomas Anderson. And this was like, right after the Master king out.
And I was like, yeah, like, best case scenario, Paul Thomas Anderson, that'd be incredible. Who wouldn't want that lifestyle? He gets to make whatever movie he wants. He has a lot of creative control and he can do that for a living. Like, who would not want that life?
And this guy laughs and he says, man, let me tell you something. Paul Thomas Anderson is unhappy. Paul Thomas Anderson's house isn't even that big.
And he was like. He was like, I worked on the Master and I had to go over to his house and to pick up a script one day. And I go over to his house he's got this small, little crappy house out somewhere in Silver Lake. He's got this printer that's like 20 years old. Took him an hour and a half to print out the script. And you know what he's doing on a Saturday afternoon? He's drinking beer and watching college football. He's.
[00:59:21] Speaker C: How unhappy is he?
[00:59:23] Speaker A: And I was just like, you're telling me that you could own a home in Silver Lake, spend your Saturdays drinking beer and watching football, and make the master. And that's not the platonic ideal of all of life.
Right. Because his house isn't even that big. I was just like.
That was a moment where I was like, okay, I know what I don't want. I know what I don't give a shit about. It's.
[00:59:41] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a hazing meeting. All right. Oh, my God, that is so funny.
[00:59:47] Speaker A: But, yeah, so I think that's. Yeah. What I want is to have a small house in Silver Lake and make a movie every three years.
[00:59:53] Speaker C: That's the dream.
[00:59:54] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:59:55] Speaker C: Yep. I love it.
Well, Luke, do you have anything else, or are we. Are we?
[01:00:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:01] Speaker B: I mean, that was really incredible. And it blew by. See the time? It's already past an hour here.
[01:00:06] Speaker C: But I feel like, genuinely, that was the quickest episode I've ever felt. I didn't look at the clock once. And I also was like, there are so many, like, clippable moments. And I know that's like, a little cringe, but you said so many profound things that I'm like, oh, oh. That's like a great sort of minute long, like, quick lesson that can be learned. So really appreciate it to wrap it up, too.
[01:00:30] Speaker B: I mean, like, I think focusing on the screenwriting side because editing is a whole nother animal that we'll have to save for another time. But on the screenwriting and directing side of things, like, do you have any. Any tips on kind of just how to stay consistent and persistent through all the noise?
[01:00:51] Speaker A: I'm reminded of something that Fyodor Dostoevsky, and this is my nerd side showing Dostoevsky said about his religion he was a Christian. Right. And he says, my religion is defined by the crisis of faith that I have every single day.
And so I don't really have any advice aside from it's normal to feel like you can't produce. Like, nobody's asking for your shit. Like, you're writing and nobody's requesting it. Like, you know, you've already written three things that almost got there and didn't get there. There's a million. That you're a procrastinator by nature. You know, whatever it may be. There's a million problems, but I think basically embracing some sort of high, high, high tolerance for your own imperfections and not letting that discourage you or make you or pivot you.
[01:01:48] Speaker C: Those feelings of, nobody wants to see my stuff.
Just general, like, you know, the inactivity, all that, like that. That is, in a way, like, power like that is. You have to dig into that and let it fuel you in a way. I, I, I get that.
[01:02:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Don't be afraid of criticism. You know, people are like, that's. People are not going to like your stuff. You're not going to always like your stuff.
That's not a catastrophe.
[01:02:17] Speaker B: I love that.
[01:02:18] Speaker C: That's awesome.
Awesome.
[01:02:20] Speaker B: Have you done this? Are you the interview guy? Is this. You do this often?
[01:02:24] Speaker A: I mean, I'm told that I'm, I'm told that I'm really good in a general, so I feel like this is kind of a version of that.
[01:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's funny. I love it.
[01:02:33] Speaker C: Have you ever thought about teaching? Is that something you're interested in?
[01:02:36] Speaker A: I do teach. Yeah.
[01:02:37] Speaker C: Okay.
[01:02:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I've taught. I've taught a couple of film classes.
Yeah. Yeah.
[01:02:42] Speaker C: I love to teach, so I love that. Well, we appreciate you hopping on Jack, and we'll, we'll definitely be in touch. We would love to, like, have you back for. We're thinking of doing, like, an advice line on the podcast.
So we were thinking of, you know, reaching out to a couple guests and having you guys back because we want to sort of create that community.
[01:03:01] Speaker A: I've really loved this conversation. I love this project. Y' all are great. Happy to come back anytime.
[01:03:05] Speaker C: So everybody appreciate it.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: Great to meet you.
[01:03:08] Speaker C: Thanks, man.
[01:03:08] Speaker A: Meet you. Have a great rest of your day.
[01:03:18] Speaker B: Did you learn something? I'm like your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050Fest on Instagram and give us five stars, because. Why not? Why not subscribe? Why not? You know why not? Okay, bye.
