Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The best thing I would say is to try to write something that has a purpose that is mutually exclusive from anything financially related. You know, one of the best experiences I've ever had as a filmmaker is this film I produced, Astro Jane, the one back there on the wall right now. Like that was a film that taught something and had a purpose in society that extended far beyond just entertainment. And you know, we premiered that film at Woodstock and sat in a their main theater for opening for the premiere of that with 500 some people. And there are women in the audience telling personal stories, crying in front of 500 strangers because they just watched this film. And that is way fucking better than any money, whatever the hell your film Hub statement says. You know.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld.
[00:00:51] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey.
[00:00:55] Speaker C: 50% business. 50%, 50% creative.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new how to.
[00:01:00] Speaker C: This week we chat with producer Josh Folin. In this episode we dive deep into how we can stay practical financially without sacrificing artistic freedom. This is the second of our three part interview series chatting with the creative team associated with Luke Matthews. Tricks Can Go Wrong.
Now available on Prime Video to rent. Enjoy the episode.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: I grew up in Ohio, like a half hour west of Cleveland in Oberlin. Some people have heard of the college and I went to Ohio State. So I was on Columbus for five years and then I moved to New York in oh, five.
[00:01:39] Speaker C: Nice. And what was the reason to move to New York?
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Oh, I mean I had a. So I went to school for finance. My background's business, so I went to school for that. And that was kind of just checking a box on a form. I didn't have any, I don't know, real passion for that as a thing. And I had a full time job even before I graduated that I kind of hated. And finance, correct? Correct. Yeah, it was like a financial advisor. So I was financial planning and I had my Series 7 and my insurance license. Then you sell them the products after you like make a plan for them. That's the idea with that job. Yeah, I didn't care for that. And I had done little modeling through college and an opportunity popped up in New York.
Some pictures got out there to some agency and one of my buddies lived in New York already. One of my fraternity brothers and I went out and crashed on his couch for a couple weeks.
I still had this job back in Columbus and I had like a 45 year old divorcee boss that was super chill. As long As I was like hitting numbers and doing business, she didn't ask any questions about.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: Yeah, she was just like, go model somewhere.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: I don't even know if I told her that. I was just like, I'm gonna be in New York. She's like, okay, just as long as the thing says the right thing. At the end of the month, whatever.
So whatever. I went on crash on his couch for a couple weeks and that went okay.
So there was like a six month period where I would go out to New York for a month or two. Or a week or two. A month, crash my buddy Jay's couch and then go back to Columbus and work this job or work this job while I'm crashing his couch as well. Because you could do some of it, you know, trying to set up appointments and stuff.
So whatever. I did that for like six months and I hated that job. And I.
I don't know. I don't know if I wanted to necessarily model. And I didn't see that as like a track to this stuff at all. But I didn't necessarily want to be in Ohio anymore, and I didn't want to work that job. So I literally stacked on my clients or my boss, all my files up, my client for my clients, on my boss's desk one Saturday, set the keys on top of the letter thanking her for everything, and then drove to New York. And that's how I ended up out there. So it was very.
I mean, it wasn't entirely like on a whim. I mean, I, you know, my lease was running out. I was like back in Ohio, my apartment and all that. So it was like somewhat mildly planned, but I didn't, you know, there wasn't any. I didn't have a job there or anything like that. I crashed on that guy Jace. He was living with his girlfriend at the time, and he and I crashed on his girlfriend's couch for two weeks while we looked for an apartment. We got an apartment together up in Harlem. And. And he was trying to leave his job and start doing acting modeling too. So it was just two dipshits trying to figure out what this is. Impossible to crack, whatever thing with no real inroads to it at all other than, I guess, just the audacity to try it, you know. So the, The.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: The intent was acting.
[00:04:28] Speaker A: Modeling was modeling. I'm acting wasn't on the.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: It was terrifying to me, the idea. I. I mean, I. Dude, I cannot even begin to stress how I come, you know, I should have. I. I grew up in a family and In a place where I should have a job with my name on my shirt, you know, like, that was very blue collar. Dad didn't even finish high school. I don't know if he, he might have started high school, but he didn't finish.
And you know, no one's going to college in my family at all. So like, you know, creativity and any sort of creative pursuit at all was just.
Just not in the menu. It just was not on the menu. And the idea that I could ever even possibly do it, especially, you know, moving into the movie side of it and acting in particular and then, you know, the things I picked up, the hats I picked up since. Yeah, none of that was ever even a vague possibility to me or a goal even because it just didn't seem like something that, you know, I had any inroad to.
[00:05:26] Speaker C: What was, what was your view of New York when you first were starting to like go and couch surf back in the day? Because we, we've interviewed a couple people we should be interviewing more, but a couple people not from like, you know, a coastal city where they would be able to have that access to a New York or in la.
And we've heard some different viewpoints. So I'm curious, you know, what was your view? And you know, I'm sure that changed over time, but like initial views.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: Yeah, very much so. Yeah. I mean I, I had the.
I guess it was not as much of a shock as it could have been because it, you know, there's not even, I mean, my graduating class in high school was 84 people. And you know, the town, there's a college there. And when that's in session, maybe 10,000 live there, but when that's out of session, maybe two. So very small. Crazy. And yeah. So New York couldn't be any different in every possible way. I did have. I would go up to Chicago a little bit in college. It was like six hours from Columbus. So that kind of became a weekend getaway. And that I think I. There was some modeling up there that like, I had an agent there. I think I did some jewelry, whatever. Some things. Yeah. There.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: So Chicago, you clearly look back very fondly on.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: On.
I mean, we're not going to get into that, whatever that tangent. But that is a up industry especially, I think. Well, it's probably, you know, whatever. I'm not a woman. I have no idea. I'm sure it's super up over there too. But yeah, the. On the male side, it was really up, I think. And there's a lot of Reasons for that, but whatever. So I would go up there for a lot of reasons and I had that kind of stepping stone, the cultural stepping stone of seeing Chicago. Like the way I remember telling the story. One of the can things I would say when I would try to describe to people the differences between maybe those three things. Middle of nowhere, Ohio, Chicago and New York is like the first time I went to Chicago, I remember driving up and seeing the skyline for the first time and it's like wham. This huge, huge thing that is so different than Cleveland or Cincinnati or anywhere I'd been to date. And then the first time I go to New York, I flew into Newark and I was taking a cab in from Newark and I remember like whatever the. Whenever you could first see Manhattan for the first time on that drive, like it was like eight of the. Chicago's boom, boom, boom, boom. And I was just like, oh my God. And that's the difference. That's.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: It's so funny. Yeah. Even when you're not in Manhattan, it's like the buildings start getting real tall. You're going through Jersey City, all that, you know. You know, it's like it's, it's. It's huge. Totally.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah. No, it's a completely. Yeah. Completely different beast. And Chicago's fantastic. But you know, it's not even uplift on the radar comparatively. And you know, that's just whatever. That's physical stuff. I mean, obviously lifestyle wise one, I didn't live in Chicago, so there's that. But you know, I have friends that have. And listen to the. It's just completely different. New York is. Especially when you're first moving there with no. You know, I was broke. I didn't know what I was doing was living. My white ass is living in Harlem.
No, it's just.
It was just such a mind blowing difference, lifestyle wise.
[00:08:32] Speaker C: It's crazy. It's insane.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: So were you finding success with the modeling out there in those first few months?
[00:08:39] Speaker A: About six. Not. Definitely not success by any length. I never.
[00:08:42] Speaker C: I mean any sort of traction, I guess.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Well, I had that. You know, I kind of. Again, I mean, everything that I've done since to some degree or another has been some lucky happenstance of just either falling into it or falling into the opportunity for it maybe, or deciding that I'm gonna do something that I have no probably bearing or basis by which to be choosing to do and just kind of trying it and. And do my best to not it up, you know. So in that case, I mean, I was there I moved there and.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: That.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: I want to say around my birthday, maybe in 05 and around the end of the year, a few months in, three months in or something like that. Around Halloween actually I booked something for Comedy Central through the modeling. One of them, like 47 modeling agents I had. They're all bullshit, fly by night things.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: One of them sent me on this ghosty for Comedy Central that was like. It was for the show Late Nights with Greg Geraldo, I think so it was a studio show that Greg Geraldo was doing at the time where it was essentially like a Friday night stand up thing. And they would do in studio spots either him doing a few minutes on stage himself with a guest or by himself or these, they would do these little skits that they would shoot and play in between the acts. So they were doing one and you guys may be too young for this, but there was this reality, one of the early, early reality shows with the show eliminated, it was just a dating Survivor esque and you know, a few guys go on a date with a girl, two of them get sent home over the course of the night and then the one making out with the girl in the hot tub at the end wins or whatever. So it was, it was a mock on that. Yeah, it was a mock on that called Hell Imitate for Halloween. And they sent this girl on a date with a like a witch warlock guy, a vampire and a male moment. And.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: And you were the warlock, right?
[00:10:37] Speaker A: Yeah, so. And like, you know, it's funny, they, they went out and did real, real people casting for those other two things, the vampire guy and the warlock guy. And they found these dudes who like.
[00:10:47] Speaker C: Who like are that.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah, they like live in that subculture. And like, what was the, what was.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: The casting process for that? Like, hey, we're looking for a warlock.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: You know, sorry, I was sitting on the other side of the table for that. I just went in for my little thing and I mean I, I can vaguely remember the room and seeing my card on the table. And that's even the extent I remember of my own personal casting process for that. I have no idea. I don't remember if those guys were there or not. The ones that got cast, I can't remember. But so whatever, I, so I booked that and that, you know, nice little. It was an after job. So it got me as a must join for that anyways and kind of got being in union on my radar. And it was a Comedy Central credit technically, even though I wasn't necessarily acting all that hard for it and that got me an agent. So. So I took some classes as a result, some acting classes at first, William Esper Studios, their Meisner program, their two year Meisner program, which I didn't come close to finishing, but I started that and I took some on camera stuff with Penny Templeton and her husband Hank Schaub in New York. And that was around when I booked the job on All My Children. That was really like the door opener for me where I started producing with one of the other meaningless actors on that show. We little stage things with the important soap actors. And I was probably, I don't know, six months into doing that when I did this horror movie with another actor, another soap guy, by happenstance that he and I had like similar scripts and no idea how to produce or raise money or whatever. But they were kind of like horror ish themed things that we had both written. And in our naivety we decided to go out and try to raise financing for both these things at the same time. Thinking having like multiple things to sell would make it easier, which was completely wrong and just convoluted it, I think. But we scraped together enough money from friends and family basically to make the one I wrote. And that was my first produced feature, all God's creatures in 09 or something like that. So I don't even know if that's exactly what you asked, but that's kind of the startup. Well, that's.
[00:12:52] Speaker C: That's so interesting that I. One thing that I'm just stuck on, and this is personal because I just did it is the fundraising part of it. Because there's only so many times you can do the friends and family ask thing.
My question is how many times have you done that? And then did you pivot into a different way or how did you learn to pivot into different versions of fundraising?
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I mean that was again early on. I mean it goes without, in my opinion, goes without saying. And you know, I have, I work with a lot of early stage filmmakers. That's how you know, Luke.
[00:13:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: And I started working together.
[00:13:36] Speaker C: Matthews.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: Yes. And you know, why the would someone give you a bunch of money to make a movie if you remain movie? You've never proved you could do that. Like that's just to me the most logical truth that whatever about this stuff and it's grasping that and coming to grips with it is maybe one of the hardest things. Early stage for filmmakers I think is like, you know, everyone reads like, oh, supposed to find the dentists and like whatever the hell the indie Track is for financing your first feature and yada yada. And like to me, I mean it certainly happens and that's why those stories slash myths exist. But to me it boils like you shouldn't even, I mean, whatever, if someone's going to give you the money, great to go do it. But like you know, you don't, I don't give a shit how many books you read, how many shorts you made, how naturally talented you are, what film school you went to, what friends you have that have told you what. You don't know shit about making a movie until you make a movie. So you shouldn't even want to though. I get that, like that's super hard to internalize, especially not having done it yet. So whatever. But early stage, to me that's the only way to do it. And then you're finding people in those cases that are investing in you, not the project, they don't give a shit about your movie. Of course, the people you're tapping for that don't even probably have an understanding of what they should be listening for when it comes to giving you money for a movie. So you know you're not selling the same product basically is maybe a shorter way to say all that as when you're going out and raising financing for something that is at least somewhat. I don't think this is a business anymore, independent film. I think it's a hobby, but something that's at least a little more equipped and geared towards recruitment.
[00:15:09] Speaker C: Right. There's, there's higher.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: It's a really lofty thing but.
[00:15:12] Speaker C: Well, there's at least, but there's totally. There's higher stakes when you're work, when you're dealing with people who know what a good pitch is and have had experiences both ways where they've made their money back and haven't. And so there's more risk, higher stakes involved. So you're at that point, right, where.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Eventually I've been doing this. To be honest with you, I mean, I don't like.
I'm 15 years into this. I've made 30 something movies that might be 40 now, I don't fucking know. I have to sit down and count them. But I don't like to raise finance because again, I don't honestly believe that the sub seven figure film is a profitable. I mean, you know, you roll the dice and some of them hit. Obviously that's what keeps this system churning is that every now and again one does hit. But generally speaking the percentages are laughable. Like, you know, there's it's a few years old now, but Sundance did that study where they had like a hundred of their films and you know, because without saying a Sundance programmed film is.
[00:16:13] Speaker C: The best possible, it's already a win, you know.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Right, exactly.
You know, other than Cast being something that's marketable, of course there's no better sales tool for making a movie profitable at again the seven, under, under seven figures or even, you know, low seven figures at the anymore. But the percentages are hysterical for, for what actually even recoups out of that data set that they put together that again, it's a few years old. It was like, you know, it basically it's just a black hole between like 50,000 and below and above seven figures. You know, everything in between, which is 95% of independent film, you know, the UPA and MPA things, especially early stage filmmakers, the MPA and UPA projects, that's where they all fall. And you know, just none of them, not zero of them made money coming out of Sunday. So like, what do you think? Again, it's a hobby, it's not a business. And I don't know, this may be the most depressing of all your interviews, perhaps.
[00:17:11] Speaker C: Well, it's, it's interesting because it's also, while it's a hobby, it's also like a necessary part of the pipeline. Right, right. The biggest filmmakers all started with that under seven figures.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: Right. And you know, and, and what I always, I guess maybe a more productive answer to what you're digging at here about the fundraising side of and how do you approach it and etc. Etc. Is, you know, is what I always say is one the, the best thing I would say is to try to write something that has a purpose, that ex. Is mutually exclusive from anything financially related. You know, one of the best experiences I've ever had as a filmmaker is this film I produced. As for Jane, the one back there on the wall right now, like, that was a film that taught something and had a purpose in society that extended far, far beyond just entertainment. And you know, we premiered that film at Woodstock and sat in their main theater for opening that for the premiere of that with 500 some people. And there are women in the audience telling personal stories, crying in front of 500 strangers because they just watched this film. And that is way better than any money, whatever the hell your film statements, you know, so you know that and, and the woman who funded that just, she funded it, wrote one check. It was a, it was, we made that for a quarter million bucks. In 2017.
And that was a one check, basically one check situation. There was one other small investor, but she lived through the time that that film is about, which is pre Roe versus Wade, women's reproductive rights landscape.
[00:18:46] Speaker B: And.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: She just, she saw, you know, that was pre Trump stuff or early Trump stuff when we were developing that and putting that together. And she just saw that coming and thought it was important that we tell the story and show what it was like to live that way as a society, you know. Yeah. And that made the funding easier, that made the distribution easier, that made the festival run easier. Everything about it was easier because the film had a purpose that extended beyond just in a movie, you know. So that's the easiest thing maybe is at least again, if you're trying to tell important stories. There's also the, the easy track financially of doing something very genre focused. That kind of, you know, even then I think it's low, low chances if you really spend any serious money. But there's at least like a cast independent or cast mutually exclusive route to making that work financially.
You know, I just, I don't like to make those movies. Again, I'm a film stop. So I want to make movies that have purpose and that's why I don't ever make any money making movies. That's probably why I have this viewpoint that isn't necessarily the most positive.
[00:19:53] Speaker C: But you've, but you've found that, you've found that ability to, you know, that sort of ease of access. And I'm sure it's obviously a very hard process, but it is that sort of like you found that angle that that's really helpful in selling something. I'm curious if we can use, is it Ask for Jane? Is it the movie? If we can use Ask for Jane as a, as a kind of case study here, how did you get involved with that? And then like what was, what were those conversations with the filmmaker and then how did you eventually, you know, access that funding?
[00:20:28] Speaker A: So that was.
I had produced a film for. We just made his second feature actually up in Sacramento this year. So I've known him for over a decade now. But I, I produced a guy, Greg Imita, his first feature, Camp Wedding, which was very intelligently on his behalf, a self financed horror comedy that it does have purpose. And he like was saying something with it and you can, you know, obviously a good filmmaker can say something with the genre film and you know, that happens all the time. So that is one way to kind of hybrid these ideas perhaps. But anyways, I produced his film in 2016, maybe something or other like that. And he was in a theater group with a couple of women, Kate Johnston and Rachel Carey, that were the primary filmmakers for Ask for Jane. And they inputting. They had written the script and they were starting to try to try to figure out a way to get produced. And they asked Greg if he knew anybody that knew how to make movies for very small amounts of money. And that's what I do. So.
Or at least relatively small amounts of money. So they were like, yeah, I know this guy Josh. So sat down, had coffee with Kate and you know, just. It hit it off. I had all the right things to say, I guess about a way to make it work at an amount of money that they felt that they could raise. And that's how we got started. You know, she sent me the script and that's one of those, you know, one of the especially early stage. I mean I hadn't. I'd made a few movies by then, but not nearly as many as now. And I hadn't read many scripts. But that made me stop reading it and start Googling because I didn't believe it didn't already exist. Like it was a story idea that I was like, this is so good, I don't believe. And so cinematic inherently that I don't believe someone hasn't already tried to do this or isn't already doing this or this isn't somewhere as a project already. And nothing I could turn up showed that it was. There was a documentary in like I don't know, 09 or something like that that, that covered the material which is about this group of women in Chicago in the late 60s, early 70s at the university, University of Chicago that started this like abortion network that again pre Ro versus Wade was just literally these college freshman girls helping women because abortions were happening. Obviously like everything else in society, you just had to have money. So what they did was women who didn't have the money for these doctors doing abortions illegally and felt a need to have one, they were helping connect them to a doctor who would.
And either getting the doctor to do it for an amount of money they could already afford or helping them raise the finance the money to figure it out, basically. So just an incredibly somatic thing. There's like this, you know, one of the early scenes is like the girls put a phone, they advertise in newspapers their dorm room phone number. So they're like in their dorm room getting these calls at like 3am from women like in like crazy ass precarious Situations My God, what the reason behind whatever. So yeah, again young girls just doing an amazing thing. Yeah these seven women in Chicago. So just an incredible idea and, and, and, and clearly had legs as, as, as something that you know would be interesting to watch on screen on top of again all the just educational benefits to it and yada yada. So we sat down and like you know I did the, did the budget and blah blah. How we're, how are we going to do this period piece, late 60s period piece.
A lot of money that was actually achievable and you know at the time the UPA or then it was the ULB contract 250 was the cap. So that's kind of what we modeled it on. And I mean I didn't like the financing goes all to Kate there they were her. And I don't know if Rachel was or not, but Kate without question was, was a member of nywift which is the New York Women in Film and Television organization in New York. So there's like a 2000 some membership at the time she sat down and emailed every one of them, you know and just said, just put herself out there and just said we are making the you know, again maybe the best exam or best, most productive thing to take from this is the like weird this is happening and do you want to get on board or not like that she did that thing and confidently got behind that in front of, in front of an audience or a group of people, people who could potentially help her do that and just made it inevitable. And I think getting you know, the quarter million dollar check out of the financier for that was just a direct, direct function of, of that mentality and willingness to put herself out there like that. So that is how that one happened. And again like. Or not again but every single one of these things on the independent scale anyways happens. And like a really to me weird and unique way there's. It's so which this is not any, you know anyone who's ever raised money at least multiple times for film. This is nothing that anyone's gonna be news or news for them. But you know, every one of them happens in like a completely unique random ass way. You know I have other films that like were financed a lot of films. I shouldn't say other. Many. I've seen many films get financed by just. I bartended for a long time in New York. I have a buddy who bartended for a long time in New York. Both of our movies have been financed by guys who were just Regulars of the bar who we ended up striking up a relationship with that extended beyond just sitting at the bar.
[00:25:47] Speaker C: Right.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: And they had expendable money liquid to just piss away on something and they chose to do it on one of our movies. You know, so it can be as simple as that and as random as that or, you know, as. Again, as. As driven and focused of a thing as Kate was able to do, you know, so there is, you know, there is no flowcharts or anything.
[00:26:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: One of them is their own unique thing. But as a case study. Yeah, that's how that one came together.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: How important is or making like a proof of concept these days? Like, did you ever think of doing something like that in the indie world? Like, is that a viable.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Yes. I mean, for sure. You know, again, to me it's, It's. It's always the. It's always a cost benefit thing to say, you know, and there's. It sucks because I don't think there's any way to gather valuable dependable data as to whether or not it worked or not. You know, you're not able to get like a truly transparent. The people who. If you are so fortunate to have something funded.
There's no way to gauge whether or not that thing that you. If you did spend money on, if you can do it for free, Jesus Christ, of course, do it, you know, or next to nothing, by all means. But if it requires any sort of substantial investment to do this, like, lesser thing that represents the bigger thing that costs more money that you want to do it, it's a risk of obviously it not having any benefit at all. But even if it does, like you being able to gauge whether or not it was necessary, there's no way to tell that. So yes, I mean, in a vacuum, of course, I think having something that conveys tone. I have a film. The other one, the other poster, actually, I did. I cut together. It had a lot of very bad things going on in it. I used a lot of footage from very bad things at the time to kind of create this thing that I'm sure helped both in the crowdfunding campaigns. We did the time, which, you know, that's of course a whole tangent we could get into, or I'd rather not get into maybe.
But you know, we did that at the time for that and I'm sure that was helpful for that. Just to convey here's what we're trying to make and the equity investors that one of the. That was mostly bar people. In that case, I'm sure It at least helped them believe that I had an idea of what the hell I was trying to make. Yeah. So in a vacuum, beneficial for sure. It's just a matter of, I think figuring out whether whatever you have to invest to accomplish it is required to get yourself to the place where you could convince whoever it is you're targeting. That's the thing too. If you're targeting different people. I don't know like, you know, some. I just, I don't do a lot of like the go around town and dance try to get a project funded by a bunch of production companies thing. Because that one, I don't, I don't know. I just, that's. I have a hard time asking for things maybe is the biggest thing. But I just tried that with a bigger project and you know that every one of them has a different. They say every one of them has a different story about what they want to see or why they're, why they're, why they're turning down a project. What's not there or what is there. Everyone has a different thing they want or need or want to see. So again, it's just, it's such a random walk, man. I think the easiest thing to do is just do whatever the hell is within your means and makes you feel like you're putting your best foot forward and like. Yeah, there's no, there's no whatever and.
[00:28:57] Speaker C: And specific to the film. You know. Like I think the Ask for Jane example was so valuable because she had a, a group of women who she knew would care about this cause and are also into film, you know. And through that she found this, you know, one big donor, it seems like. So it, it, it's really like no sort of the play know thematically what your film is about and the purpose.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: That's.
[00:29:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: That's something that you can research is free other than your time. Yeah. And doing that again, figuring that out one it serves your long term purpose of.
[00:29:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Who's gonna watch the movie when you're done with it? So it's helpful there too.
[00:29:35] Speaker C: Of course.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: But yeah, I mean just doing your research and doing your homework and knowing who you're talking to and trying to get a gauge of what they want to hear before you get there. You know, and using, you know, you go out and like you. If you do the dance thing I was just talking about, you learn what that particular individual or that company likes and then the next thing that you're bringing to them, you can tailor a little better to what that is. So Even playing the long game maybe is another positive thing you could think of like every.
Whatever, just make nothing precious go out, put yourself out there and gather as much data as you can, whether it be via research or actually engagement with whoever the hell you're trying to get to help you make this thing, you know, and, and tailoring those things a little better next time is. Is also maybe some good advice if it, you know, isn't in every book already. Yeah, that.
[00:30:23] Speaker C: That totally makes sense. I'm curious what kind of producer you are. Are you on set?
Are you, you know, kind of overseeing the production? Or how, how much are you talking with the director while it's actually shooting? Like what. You know, take us through that process of. The process that.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that I, I always say I do two very different things. With the business background I am naturally, whatever, capable of, I think, and creating an organization system and building structure into things that not every artist is necessarily great at. And that is. That is what. Right, exactly. So that is, that's. That's what started me producing probably. Is that like I. That theater company I started was literally. I was with a theater school graduate and you know, he wanted to do a theater, make a theater company. He just had no. The simplest of spreadsheet concepts were beyond his means. So that is how that relationship started was just having that thing to plug into the thing that every venture needs. You need structure, you need an organization, you need to have a plan, you know, so I'm good at that. So I do a lot of that. That for hire as a line producer. You know, I UPM'd a lot or have UPM'd a lot as well. Very little of that now. More line producing when it's outside projects. So I do a lot of that. And in some of those cases I've gotten fortunate where the past couple years I'm more frequently able to do that on projects that I also creatively care about. But I've also done a lot of that for projects I wouldn't touch creatively with 10 foot pole that are, you know, lifetime straight to Hallmark type things. I've worked with a lot of companies, Asylum and some others that make those things. They're just pumping them into the pipeline. Yeah, these horrible movies that make the world a worse place.
[00:32:12] Speaker C: They have quite the thing going there, right?
[00:32:14] Speaker A: Exactly. But it's, you know, also like Asylum is the great example of this. Like they, man, those dudes have made it work for over 20 years now. 25 years or something. And like you can talk all the Shit you want about the qualitative concern they have about these projects, but the quantitative aspect of it is prolific beyond belief. And that requires actually turning into a business that I've already said is near impossible these days, so.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: And the audience is there, right?
[00:32:46] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:32:46] Speaker B: They wouldn't be doing it if it. If it wasn't working.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: Precisely. Precisely. So, yeah. I mean, you know that whatever. It's draining. I've done projects on those where I literally come home and spend all the money I made to make one of my own dumb little things just to wash it off of me. So. Right.
You know, it's.
[00:33:03] Speaker C: It's a crazy way to look at it.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. There's a price to pay, I think, to work in that space if. Whatever. If. Depending on again, what. Everyone's different, of course. But the. So I do a lot of that and then also I do a lot of things where I am. Yes. Creatively vested. I'm working very close with the filmmaker. You know, Luke is. Our tricks can go wrong and project. Luke is such a great example. Yeah. You know, that comes to me from a guy I worked with a bunch he production coordinative. Started as a PA production. Coordinated upmd a little bit for me on projects back in New York. He works a lot in the commercial space. He ended up at Amazon for a while. He worked with Luke's brother at Amazon and they were bullshitting.
[00:33:44] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: And Luke's brother was like, I. My brother is making this movie for like he's like 30 grand, you know, like, how the hell do you know anyone that can even maybe help him figure that out?
[00:33:55] Speaker C: He's like, I have the guy for you.
[00:33:56] Speaker A: I have the exact guy.
I know the exact guy. And yeah. So you know that I. That's one of my favorite.
Whatever. Meeting story. Meet cute stories I have with the first time early stage filmmaker. We met at this coffee joint in Culver City on the steps there. And he shows up and he's got this printed up packet. He's got his laptop. He's like, he's ready to present.
[00:34:22] Speaker C: I thought you were gonna say that he was gonna show up in the magician outfit because that. That would have been.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: No, he dressed normal. He dressed up. Which I'm surprised in hindsight because he is a very.
[00:34:30] Speaker C: He's not a normal guy.
[00:34:31] Speaker A: You know, he's not a normal guy. And he has no fear, man. And that clearly.
[00:34:36] Speaker C: Clearly.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Yeah. We could do a whole podcast on that exact film pro that filming process. And there were so many things he did that blew my Mind and, And impressed me. I can't even begin to cover them here, but we sit down and he has all these presentation materials and he starts like, you know, he's doing a. He's gonna do a thing, do a show there at a coffee. At a table in front of a coffee shop. And like, you got like, I don't know, 15 seconds in, I'm like, luke, stop that. Close that laptop. I was like, talk to me. Talk to me like a human being and tell me what you're trying to do, you know? Yeah. And it was just. I don't know. I. I hate to like, be a little. Or make it sound in a belittling way, but it was adorable.
Sure, sure. But the. What he. When he stopped doing that and started talking, you could tell that he was like, he had. He knew exactly what that was real. Yeah. He knew how he was going to do it. And. And yeah, the passion was evident in spades. And that is going back to, you know, how do you get people to. That's how you get people to buy any of these things, is to truly care and know what it is yourself and be passionate about it. That's how you get other people involved, is to, to have passion. And that will read, that'll show through in your emails that you're sending out. Even if you're sending them in shotgun blast form and you're just firing them all over town if you actually care about it and you are putting time and effort into that and, and stylizing that in a way that your passion reads and it. Even that is a valuable thing. So, yeah, so he had that. And that's how, you know, that project came to be.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: I. I have a question because you mentioned it about self financing, and it seemed, at least from what I've heard, that's like the biggest, worst idea.
[00:36:12] Speaker A: It's terrible. Yeah, it's. Well, it's.
[00:36:13] Speaker C: It's.
[00:36:13] Speaker A: You're already looking at it from. Again, this is my business school talking, but business school background. But, you know, diversification is the number one is. Is. Is the chief portfolio theory. And you know, if you're looking at your life like a portfolio, an investment portfolio, your assets are your time and your resources, obviously, and your resources are your money and your time, obviously, is your time. And you would never want to put all your investment, all your money, all your assets into just one investment that you're totally dependent on the success of.
[00:36:47] Speaker C: That especially that kind of investment.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. With so little odds of a positive roi.
[00:36:53] Speaker B: Precisely.
[00:36:54] Speaker A: So, yeah, it's just stupid business basically is the easiest thing to say about it. But there's also no one who cares about your thing as much as you. So, you know, it's, it probably just goes back to that cost benefit thing I was talking about. Like whether or not it's not smart. It's never smart. No matter how much you believe in yourself. That doesn't make it smart or how good you are or how good of an idea. It's never smart. There's just no way that it's smart. But it is sometimes required. And honestly, there's not a lot about creative endeavors that is smart. It's, you know, it's the passion, emotionally fueled expression and that is not usually not smart.
[00:37:37] Speaker C: You are, I mean, you're, it's, it's really refreshing to talk to someone who has such a business oriented background but also understands, you know, the, the, the passion of it.
Yeah, exactly. The stupidity is, is necessary. So I'm curious because I, I remembered my question finally. It was, what kind of producer are you? If, if you, if you want to take us through that, like the, the Luke Matthews situation where he's, you know, you tell him to shut his laptop, he's pitching it to you. What are, what are whether, what are the next steps there and then throughout the process?
[00:38:13] Speaker A: Well, you know, he clearly conveys how little money he has. And you know, I always say, like anything, any project say, you know, clearly there are exceptions to this rule. If you have some sort of really high concept thing that requires things that have to be done safely and you know, there's some filmmakers that tell you it, let's do it anyways, even in that case, that doesn't make that smart either. But you know, whatever. For the. Generally speaking though, if it's just people talking and you're just telling us a normal story, then you can back just about any script into just about any budget. Now you have to clearly, it goes without saying there are going to be concessions in doing that if the thing, if the budget you're backing it into is truly microscopic, you know. So the hardest thing maybe for early stage filmmakers is being comfortable with that and capable of it. But also, but I got, I guess, yeah, comfortable with it, like understanding that those are going to be present and having the creativity and the inclination to want to and be able to problem solve whatever the creative solution is for that budgetary constraint that this small ass amount of money is going to present to the story telling process. You know, problem solving. Right. And that, and Luke was amazing at that like there was, you know, it doesn't. I don't.
And make, you know, we shot that. That was one of the cool things about it too, was that it was such a unique production process. I don't know if this is, you know, redundant with. I'm sure he talked about that process already and whatever, but, like, you know, there was like a. A man on the street leg of that production process where we were going out and shooting people on the street that were not. Did not know they were in a movie. We did not know what was we were going to get in the can out of those. Out of that shooting. And then when we finished that, I mean, he had like a script.
He had a script that like, had some scriptment edges to it, you know, that, you know, there was just a couple lines or like some shit out on the street happens. We did some magic tricks, whatever.
[00:40:28] Speaker C: A lot of it was relying on improv. Right, right.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: So the script had to kind of be tailored to that footage that we acquired with the man on the street shooting in a way that allowed us to tell a whole complete story, you know, and that was, to me, as a person who is highly organized by requisite. It was terrifying for me, you know, and I was, in hindsight, so much more worried about so many things that he was just like, no, I don't worry about that. I like, you know, and he would never say that to me, but. But that's. In hindsight, that's what he was saying to me. It's like, no, that's fine. Don't worry about that.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:02] Speaker A: I'll figure it out. I'll get in there, I'll stick my. I'll stick my head in and I'll just find a solution, you know, and that is. Is such. Was such an impressive thing to watch happen in real time in so many cases. So in that I guess maybe back to the actual question was like, what am I? What's my process there? So, like, you know, I go in and I impose my. Here's the little structure that we're going to have. My stupid little Google Drive system and all the spreadsheets and all that stuff that I. I implement on any project, regardless of budget scale. And then we try to wedge that into his script, his $30,000amount of money. And, you know, that's basically we're shooting on these Sony Handycam things, you know, that are. They're not even real, they're not even cameras. But one, it serves the aesthetic that he's going for, and two, is what we have to do to make it work. Because this is such an improvisational based thing. We have to have two cameras. There's no way in hell we can rent two cameras or even get a favor for two real cameras and then obviously need the other human being to shoot to hold the other camera. So like, you know, some of the people. Some of the people holding the second camera on some of that stuff where like we're with the fortune teller and stuff is like a pa. You know, it's photographer necessarily. We did hire a photographer for some of the stuff. But I mean, yeah, it just, you know, whatever the hell the solution is. You have to be able to just be like, okay, it. That's what we have to do. That's how much money we have. Let's just do it, you know what I mean? And figure out a way to make it work. So helping him come up with those solutions and encouraging him when he had one that it would work or I could see it working perhaps even if I had my own reservations about whether it could maybe as part of the chief job functions there.
But yeah, I mean, obviously, like I said, tailoring that script to envelope the stuff that we had shot, ensuring that, you know, it was something that we could achieve financially. Whether it be, you know, we of our biggest expend expenditures for that was like the talent show venue, which was a gymnasium at a school that's like the cheapest school to shoot at in LA by far and away. It's in Whittier.
It's a Catholic school of some kind. And you know, I don't know, I did a million Asylum movies there and like got that for a grand a day or 1500 a day out of a $30,000 budget is like a massive expense, you know, but like finding a way to make that work and like whatever, just. Just finding solutions that fit into the box for what that project had to be. Be both creatively and finding the business, like whatever the practical thing is that checks that creative box for the day.
And I, you know, that's stuff I'd love to do and I love that. That.
Yeah, I love it. I love world crafting spreadsheet and I love solving problems. And that is probably what has kept me in the stuff for as long as I've been in it. Totally actually enjoying that process, which sometimes is creative and sometimes, I mean, I guess it's in some. Some degree it's always creative. But you know, it. It is less, I guess maybe of a film industry creative process as just like a business Solution, creative process. And I enjoy that probably as much as, you know, the moviemaking stuff. Yeah.
[00:43:57] Speaker C: I think especially when you're working with directors who have a really strong point of view, like good, they have a strong point of view, but also you have to be adaptable to that director.
[00:44:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:07] Speaker C: And I think Luke had such a strong point of view and he knew exactly what was going to happen obviously more than you did with the scriptman.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: And all of that.
[00:44:17] Speaker C: Like that's not traditionally the way you do it. But what I'm hearing is you had to adapt to that, you know.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Sure, absolutely. And you know, and then be able to, I mean he's to a degree, he's the director, he's working with cinematography, he's working with the crew people and you know, conveying this vision. Same with the actors. But there's also like, you know, when I were hiring a DP that I've worked with a bunch on a bunch of other projects, none of which are this small. And I'm calling Colin and I'm like, hey Colin, you got this crazy ass project to find a way to like prep him, to be confident that this crazy ass conversation he's about to have with this early stage filmmaker is executable, you know, and it's not going to make his life miserable, especially as a dp, you know, I don't care how good they are. They're all, they all like their toys. So to tell him he's not going to have any toys, he's not even have a real camera. Yeah, yeah, it's a real hard opening pitch to a, a good dp, you know.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: So how, how do you pitch him? What is that phone call?
[00:45:14] Speaker A: Well, part of that phone call is just the fact that it's my number on his phone to begin with and he knows it's going to be weird.
[00:45:20] Speaker C: It's a relationship.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. He, he knows it's not going to necessarily be the most financially fulfilling phone call. But one, the people that I work with a lot, I call often, I have the good fortune of working and having these crazy ass projects semi frequently. So that's a bargaining tool perhaps that makes these things possible at the rates that I'm able to sometimes convince people to work for whether I want to or not. It's just the project is what it is.
And, and two, yeah, I mean, you know, I have to be passionate about why I think this person he doesn't know is going to be able to do the thing right that we don't have the resources to do and how I see it possible. You know what I mean? So, again, I think it just goes back to passion, probably. Is that like I. When I give a. About something, you see me ranting here, like if I actually care about something, very animated, very loud, sometimes convincing. And that is how I get people probably to do things that they come out and do. Is that just. I. They trust that if I'm going to. I'm snobby enough that if I'm going to get behind and passionate about something, that it's at least potentially worth their time. And if they're not doing anything else that's more financially lucrative at the time, fuck it, I'll go out and do Josh's stupid little thing.
[00:46:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:42] Speaker C: So how long was that shoot we did?
[00:46:46] Speaker A: Well, the man on the street stuff was incredibly sporadic. Like we did. We would do like a day or two and, you know, Luke would kind of go back to the drawing board and kind of figure out what worked, what didn't, what he wants to change, how he wants to tweak. Yeah, A lot of that stuff was actually, like doing tricks. So he would have to like, make some sort of makeshift prop, you know, like he made a saw and half thing for the first day that didn't even kind of work. It was so unsafe. In hindsight, I can't believe we convinced. He just went right.
[00:47:18] Speaker C: 0 to 100.
[00:47:19] Speaker A: I can't believe he convinced people to get inside that thing. You know, it was like, you know, just not sound enough to have human beings and probably.
And that's, you know, whatever. That's part of this thing too, is like there's some risks inherent. And I always, again, like, if I'm coming on as a higher producer, it's my job to advise. I'm not making any decisions for you. I will strongly be. Be very adamant about something. I am. I feel that way about, but it's not my decision. It's. You're the LLC holder. I'm coming in. I'm an advisor. I'm telling you what's smart. I'm telling you what's possible. I'm telling you what our finances allow us to do. It's your decision whether or not one. I don't know exactly what you're gonna do in that moment. So that's one reason I can kind of whatever. Come to terms with whatever you're going to choose make as the decision about this thing, but I'm just going to give you my advice. And you as the filmmaker, you as from the business side of it. The LLC holder knows what our. I'm going to convey what our insurance situation is and you have to make the decision about what we're going to do today. And you know, as long as it's like not glaringly, wildly unsafe. And I feel like I have to step in and be like, okay, this is insane.
You know. Right. Which I, I can't think of a time I ever had to do off the top of my head, thankfully. But yeah, I mean, you know, there's like a little bit of, if you're gonna make a movie for 30 grand, there's like a little bit of just, we're gonna just make it work and like we're gonna fly by the seat of our pants here and hope for the best. And obviously again, there's like a threshold where safety becomes a thing, but we're probably going to be wandering close to that at times to make this work for this amount of money. You know what I mean?
[00:48:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: And that's, that's part of the thing too, I guess is maybe asking how do you function? Or how do you, what do you, what do you do? To serve a project like that is like you're just, you're, you're helping someone do some crazy ass thing and that's what's cool about it, that's what's fun about it. That's why it's thrilling and that's why you can have end up with a crazy ass end product that did not seem achievable when you looked at the pool of resources you had at the start of it.
[00:49:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: Is because you're, you're pushing boundaries in some way shape or form, you know, creatively, structurally business perspective, whatever it might be. So that is what is fun about it. But you know.
[00:49:31] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. Yeah.
[00:49:33] Speaker B: What's the biggest difference between working with a young or maybe even new filmmaker versus an established. And do you prefer one or the other?
[00:49:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I absolutely prefer the early stage filmmaker.
[00:49:46] Speaker B: Seasoned, I guess.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. I mean, and, and again, I guess, you know, we were talking just about the one thing with, with, with Luke, like worked a lot of. I work with a lot of established filmmakers on a repeat basis as well. And like in those cases I'm much, you know, I'm not necessarily there next to the director, making decisions with monitor or even talking to them like they know what they're doing. I don't have to be there for that. I can go deal with whatever dumbass agent or whatever stupid conversation email thread I have my inbox there's another.
[00:50:16] Speaker C: Yeah, there's just different responsibilities. Right.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Precisely. Right. You know, that's the thing too.
The later of a stage filmmaker, you are probably the bigger and the more moving parts of project has and requires more of attention on the business side of things. So.
[00:50:29] Speaker C: Yeah, right.
[00:50:30] Speaker A: Bandwidth to be out there, maybe involved in the moment to moment creative process, but which there are pros and cons to, I guess.
[00:50:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:50:39] Speaker A: But as far as what I enjoy and it's not even necessarily having to be there, like in Luke's case, I. I wouldn't say that I was.
There wasn't a lot of situations where I had to stand next to him and help him make decisions moment to moment. Again, he had a vision, he knew what he was doing better than I did. It was such a crazy ass thing in so many cases that my stupid ass input probably would have been kind of productive. So I hope, I think I was able to see that, hopefully was able to see that and kind of just stayed out of his way unless he needed something from me. So that was a situation where I had an early stage filmmaker where I wasn't necessarily right there helping them make decisions or giving my input because I do have a. Whatever, I've directed a few things. So.
But what I enjoy for sure is yes, the early stage filmmaker because they have, you know, they have this. If they get me excited enough about it to want to do it for a movie, if the whole thing's for 30 grand, I'm not making any money for sure either. So I'm not doing it for money. It's not keeping my lights on. This is the one of the projects I do parallel to the ones that I don't want to be creatively involved with to keep my lights on. So this, I'm. This is something I have to be passionate enough about to want to do for no money. So clearly I'm enthusiastic about it.
And the thing like they have this idea that I see virtue in and they just have no clue how to get from where they're at to that thing being on a screen. And like I've done this so many times, especially at the super stripped down scale that it's, I don't want to say turnkey. Like I said, there's different problems that every project presents and that's what's fun about it. But as far as the basic structure of what we're going to do goes like I have the system, I have the Google Drive, it's just, I can just copy and paste it, make a new folder on Google Drive. And here we go, you know, start filling in the spreadsheets and like that system, whatever it amounts to, is all they really need to unlock the thing, you know what I mean? And helping them travel that little line, however long it might be between point A and point B is just a wildly fulfilling thing that is, Yeah, I don't know, certainly more fun than talking to agents all day and arguing about deal points for trailers and what I have to do for a bigger quote unquote project that is a little more traditional.
[00:52:51] Speaker C: Right.
[00:52:52] Speaker B: So if, if new filmmaker comes to you with a script like a, a large story, there are explosions and there's a car chase and it's, it's, there's a lot happening. And they say they have 40k or some, you know, like what you call it, kind of like a microscopic budget, I guess, under 50k. Like, are you the type of producer to say you're nuts? Like we, we cannot do this for this? Or it's like, okay, I hear you.
[00:53:21] Speaker C: But like, yeah, what is that conversation?
[00:53:23] Speaker B: Like, are you, are you figuring it out of like trying to fit it under that within the budget? Or is it like, we need to be realistic about this?
[00:53:30] Speaker C: Like, this isn't going to work.
[00:53:32] Speaker A: You know, the most important thing is close the laptop, put your PDF or put your packet away and talk to me and tell me what it is. What are you trying to do? What's the point? What are you trying to say? What's the film mean? Why do you care? Why does anyone else care? Why would anyone else care? Why do I care? Why are all the people who you want to show up on the days of going to care, what are the things that are going to make this thing get there? Why would we want to put in the time and effort and however much money might be to get it done? So like, that is the chief thing I need to feel out. And you know, I do a lot of, you know, I, a lot of the stuff I do again to keep the lights on. I do a lot of budget, so I do a lot of the breakdown stuff. And like that's a situation where I may not be doing the project or may not be producing the project together. I'm just one of the first, like practical eyes on the thing, on the concept. And in that case, I'm breaking down the script, I'm making my prelim schedule and I'm doing a budget. So I basically look at it from a very nuts and bolts perspective. And like, now we're going to talk about how producible this is based on the amount of money you think you have available to you or potentially available to you to make this thing. And like how that all fits together and how those conversations go. Sometimes filmmakers are just like, no, we need a million dollars. And I'm like, who never made movie, dude? Who's going to give you million bucks? Like, if you have a million bucks, fine, yeah, I can certainly back this into a million dollar budget, no problem. But you're not. You know, I very, as you might assume based on this conversation, I am very pragmatic and very communicative about the impossibility of this stuff, especially for someone who doesn't have a track record of demonstrating that they can do it themselves. You know what I mean? So I am not bashful about telling a filmmaker, like, here's why I don't think that's possible.
And you can do whatever you want about that. Listen to me, don't. But here is my opinion. Take it or leave it, you know, and like that. I am not bashful about conveying that at all. And there are some times where filmmakers stop answering my emails. You know, it's whatever, man. Like I, it's. I have found it.
[00:55:23] Speaker C: You're asking questions that they don't want to hear, right?
[00:55:26] Speaker A: Precisely. Precisely. Yeah, I've, I've certainly found that while my brand of honesty is not for everyone, it serves me in a way that has keeps my ship afloat.
The people that I do continue to work with respect the out of it because they know they're not going to get any.
And the ones that don't work for, I'm probably going to be miserable working with anyways. So it's a, it's a great shit test on whether or not we should even go into the next step. You know, it's brutal honesty like that. So that's how I approach it. And again, that doesn't mean that a script with car crashes can't work at 40 grand in this highly specific scenario, but depending on what that filmmaker has available to them, what their background is, how achievable it is for them specifically, because again, that's every filmmaker. You know, a filmmaker with the same script, one filmmaker with, with the same script versus another filmmaker with the same script, it's different budgets, you know, it's not the same budget just because of the script. The filmmaker and the apparatus they need to achieve whatever the story they're trying to tell is, is different from the same text. You know what I mean? Different filmmakers. So that Is again, it requires more specificity than that. You know, there are filmmakers who have a Solution. Put a GoPro on a tire and the car looks like it's crashing, like, you know what I mean? Like, there are different ways to achieve that particular problem. Do you have the solution? You tell me how we're doing that in a way that fits into this budget. I'm not telling you. Right. You know what I mean? So I give you the options I think are possible to achieve that thing. But I'm all ears if you have a better one. You know what I mean? So that.
Yeah, it's. It's, again, just like the financing side of it. Everyone has its own unique fun.
[00:57:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:07] Speaker A: And that's why it's cool.
[00:57:09] Speaker C: What. What advice do you have to aspiring producers who want to do what you do? Because I think we've been talking a lot about your angle on filmmakers and how they approach stuff and funding and things like that. But for someone who wants to fill your shoes one day and do what you want to do, what.
Especially because it's a unique time in the industry right now, like, what. What advice would you have for them?
[00:57:33] Speaker A: I just. It's so.
You know, I listen to a ton of these podcasts. I just listened to show Don't Tell this morning with the Baltimore ons DP that Gnome did. And, you know, and also the no Film School had Shane Black. I was just under this and like, they asked him this question. It's like he came up in the 90s. Like, his viewpoint on how you get started now is useless. I kind of feel like mine is too, for the same reason. I, like, I think about the first film I produced when we produced All God's Creatures. I remember thinking then, this is 0708. I remember thinking then.
I mean, the Internet, for the purposes of helping one produce a film, was infantile relative to now, you know, And I remember thinking, like, trying to find a rail yard that we could shoot a train car scene in.
Like, I remember we found a solution out in Long island that was like a railroad museum that just had gotten some cars in its back gravel lot that it wanted to maybe start renting out as film set things. And they wanted to do a test run just to see if it was miserable or something, you know, and we. I just happened to luck into that via finding it on Google or whatever. And, like, that was hard to do that then.
[00:58:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:50] Speaker A: And now it's. There are so many things that are so much easier. But sure, on the flip side, there are things that are harder now because of the, I don't know, the flow of information makes. I don't, who knows? I don't, I don't know. So the start to start now is so different than starting in 0807 that I, I, I hesitate to answer this question with any confidence. You know, some, maybe basic principles would be everything I've done, whether it be producing, acting, editing, directing, writing, all these things were just, I just said it and did it and I had no idea what I didn't know. And this maybe again is in every how to book ever. It's the most basic of concepts. But just hear another idiot say it perhaps like just do it and like you were going to fuck it up. But there's no way. No film school, no working as a PA is not going to teach you how to direct. You're going to see things. It's great to get exposure to the process and do all that you can. And that's, you know, how you're going to create relationships that allow you to achieve creative goals down the road. And there's a million reasons why just making those efforts in any way you can translate to long term success.
But for anyone to take you seriously as a producer, you're going to have to produce something and the only way to do that is to just do it. And again, you're going to fuck some things up and you're probably going to piss some people off and you're probably going to fail at some things. But, but as long as you're respectful of people's time, you're honest and transparent about the way you're it up or how you it up or why you it up or whatever. And you're willing to, you're willing to whatever make that concession of, of, of, of admitting that to someone if you do make their day, a less great thing to, to show up to your crazy little indie set. Like as long as you have that mentality and you're respectful of people about, and honest with people about where you're at and what you're trying to do, which of course makes it harder because then you're being honest and saying I don't have this experience. Sure. But again, honesty and transparency with the right people that you want next to you, it will read in a positive way. Yeah, always being that way to me is, I don't know, I don't know how the hell you could. There's so many people obviously there's so many horror stories of people deceiving and.
[01:01:06] Speaker C: At the highest levels Too right.
[01:01:07] Speaker A: Fucking people over and I just. I can't imagine.
I don't know man. I don't know. Whatever. Different strokes for different folks. I guess different tactical feels like that.
[01:01:16] Speaker C: Honesty is like just inherent to who you are, you know?
[01:01:20] Speaker A: Right. I guess perhaps in the 5 review. But yeah, I mean if approaching it that way we'll read the right way with the right people and just getting out there and doing it with those people at that stage is the way to get the first foothold on anything. And again those people. The biggest mistake I made. I am horrible at maintaining relationships. I. Picking up the phone and just calling someone just a bullshit is like the most emotionally taxing thing possible. And like. But, but those people that you meet in those early stage things like so many of those people that I worked with on crazy ass projects early on are doing crazy things and I did a job of maintaining relationships with them and that person could be so helpful to me. And know that's maybe sounds like a whatever A A very self serving mindset or whatever. But it doesn't have to be for one one if you're just maintain this relationship that you both gain from by just not even like using each other for professional stuff. It's just if you create and maintain a relationship it's maybe something you just enjoy. You know I have a million group. Everyone does group chats with people that you just get on with well and a lot of them now that I've maintained for this, that I have been able to maintain are also doing cool shit professionally and that inherently creates opportunity for yourself and solutions for yourself and yada yada yada. So just that is probably the biggest advice I would give is to do a good job, be a. Find a way. Whether it's easy for you or not, to be a person who creates and maintains relationships with people that you get on well with and put in the effort to do that because those things are going to be. If you're doing this for the long haul, which I don't know why you would do it if you're not.
If it's not a sickness that you can't give up, there's no reason to be doing this to me.
Yeah. Having that mentality will be super help, super helpful. Yeah. It's not everyone inherently, I think, you know, thinks they need to do that. I certainly didn't.
[01:03:14] Speaker C: Awesome.
I'm curious what's next for you? Do you have any projects that you're excited about?
Are you looking for material? Are you. And then the second part of that question is like, what's the North Star like? What do you want to be doing in 10 years? What's ideally where you see yourself?
[01:03:30] Speaker A: What's my 10 year plan? Wyatt? I know, man.
No, I. So yeah, I mean I. Last year was a good year. So I did. There were three features I did basically from June to the end of the year, Sticky with my buddy Shawnee, which we're just now starting the Q1 festival stretch on or pitch on rather.
So we'll see how that festival side of it shakes out. And that is a hilarious.
I'm calling it a noir comedy, which I don't know if that's even a thing, but all his. All my buddy Shawnee's movies are like that. And that is if it's not a genre, it needs to become one and he will create it. Yeah, it's a hilarious kind of like, I don't know, action love triangle story that we shot here in LA last summer that again will be hopefully rolling out. I would guess if we're due, if we get so fortunate as to have a Q1 festival release probably tail end of the year, early 2026 or 27 rather. And I did one in Austin last year with guys I work with all the time. They make their like these mockumentary whiz kids. And it's a pickleball mockumentary that it's premiering in Austin here in a few weeks actually Austin Film Festival. And that will be coming out next year, I'm sure. So those are things in the Hopper, the one I shot up in Sacramento. Greg Imitaz new film is Amador county has no Corner and that was a super gritty thing that we did.
Fantastic kind of drama about domestic violence. And so those are things that are kind of in the pipeline already. And yeah, I mean things that were Shawnee and I, the one I did Sticky with last. Last year. We have another one that will probably get done later this year awesome called Dasher. And that's like.
It's about a designer drug made from reindeer. Reindeer piss.
But it's hysterical. And fuck, everything he writes is like beyond hysterical. Super fucked up and just my perfect brand of comedy. And it's a guy that I've known, we bartended together for years in New York and I've known him forever. And the idea that we are working together semi routinely on film projects now is just one of the beauties of again, kind of the thing I said about relationships. We form that relationship with no, no intent whatsoever to work together. And it Just, you know, it's, whatever. Serendipitous in that way that we enjoy each other's time enough without it, where making movies together is just a bonus plan, you know? And if you find those relationships, especially with talented people like Shani, life gets a lot easier.
[01:06:02] Speaker C: Awesome, dude. Well, we really appreciate having you on the pod. I feel like we've covered so much. We've covered the importance of honesty.
And I wrote down probably three times. Close your laptop. Close your laptop. Everybody just close it. Just talk.
[01:06:15] Speaker A: Speak from. Talk to the person. Be a human being. That is the most impactful, powerful thing you can do is be a human being. Not a. I don't know, an AI chatbot, which is what a lot of people think, I think kind of business situations require.
[01:06:28] Speaker B: Yep.
[01:06:29] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:06:29] Speaker C: Well, thanks for hopping on, dude. We really appreciate it.
[01:06:33] Speaker A: Absolutely. Dudes, good chat. Hopefully, it's.
[01:06:35] Speaker B: Thank you, Jo.
[01:06:35] Speaker A: Some of it is semi helpful. Some of the rambling is helpful.
[01:06:38] Speaker C: We'll find. We'll find some things in there.
[01:06:41] Speaker A: The power of the edit.
[01:06:42] Speaker C: Power of the.
[01:06:43] Speaker A: Exactly. I wrote down.
[01:06:44] Speaker B: I wrote down self financing. Question mark. Not smart.
[01:06:49] Speaker A: Yeah, great. Yeah. These two things are probably honesty, and it's not a business, it's a hobby. That's the biggest takeaways.
[01:06:56] Speaker C: Yeah, there we go.
[01:06:58] Speaker B: There we go.
[01:06:58] Speaker A: Conflicting, kind of. But that's maybe again, that's arc.
[01:07:02] Speaker C: I love it. All right, thanks for chopping it up with us. Appreciate it.
[01:07:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. Talk to you soon.
[01:07:12] Speaker B: Did you learn something? I'm like your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at the 5050Fest on Instagram and give us five stars, because. Why not? Why not subscribe? Why not? Yeah, you know why not? Okay, bye.
