HOW TO: Toggle Between Animation and Live-Action with Success (w/ Karen Zipor)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: When it comes to convincing them to dedicate their time, I think the animation industry in, in the US is, like, not doing great. A lot of stuff is being outsourced to, like, Canada or South Korea or India, more and more. And so I think there's just a lot of young, hungry people, either right out of school or a few years out of school that are like, I just want more work. I just want to be a part of a really good title and a really good production studio. And a lot of people I showed the script and the pitch deck to, and they went, oh, this is an amazing idea. Like, this will be something fun and doable. [00:00:48] Speaker B: I'm Luke Steinfeld. [00:00:49] Speaker C: And I'm Wyatt Sarkisian. [00:00:50] Speaker B: We made the 5050 podcast to support you on your filmmaking journey. [00:00:54] Speaker C: 50% business, 50% creative. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Every Tuesday, a new this week, we. [00:00:59] Speaker C: Bring you a long overdue episode with our close friend and collaborator, Karen Zapor, who not only serves as a pillar of composure and professionalism in the grueling animation pipeline, but also remains assertive and driven in the live action space. This one's a treat. Enjoy. [00:01:24] Speaker B: Foreign. [00:01:29] Speaker C: Welcome to the 5050 podcast. It is so overdue, obviously, and I'm sure we'll get into how we met in our relationship and everything, but you, you know Luke. Luke, you know Karen. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I know you. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I met at the comedy 50 50. [00:01:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Earlier this year. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. [00:01:54] Speaker B: I, I, I was, I was walking earlier and I saw a worm on the wet sidewalk and I thought of you. [00:02:03] Speaker C: Wait, it's worm season. It is so worm season. [00:02:06] Speaker B: And I said for context, it's raining. [00:02:09] Speaker A: A lot right now. [00:02:11] Speaker B: That's true. [00:02:11] Speaker C: And for additional context, she made a, a movie about a worm, which is a lot of layers, which is perhaps more contextual. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Out of context. That sounds really mean. I saw this worm on the sidewalk. [00:02:23] Speaker C: And I thought of you. [00:02:24] Speaker B: I know, but in a, but in a good way. In a way of like, oh, wow, that's, that's fun, you know? [00:02:30] Speaker C: Totally. [00:02:30] Speaker A: Was it dancing? Was it break dancing? [00:02:32] Speaker B: It honestly was. It was, it was a long one and it was like, really moving. And I said, that's, that might be her boyfriend. [00:02:41] Speaker C: Ex boyfriend. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. [00:02:44] Speaker C: Ex boyfriend. Karen, how are you doing? How is life since the last time we saw each other? [00:02:50] Speaker A: Well, we last saw each other about two weeks ago at our own screening that we did for my animated short, the Worm's Eye View, the Bird and your amazing web series, which I also produced called Film Bros of Grace. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Yes. And we had a nice little Q and A afterwards, hosted by former 5050 podcast guest Johnny Marks. Shout Out Johnny. [00:03:14] Speaker B: I think he's episode number seven or eight. [00:03:18] Speaker C: Really? I thought he was earlier than that. Yeah, he's, he's one of the OGs, definitely. And he. I see like a burgeoning career for him as a Q A moderator. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Right. It was awesome. As, as someone in the crowd, not up on stage, it was awesome. I think the way you guys programmed it of going with Karen's first and then Film Bros after was awesome. And they filled the place. It was sold out. It was a great vibe. Johnny was awesome. The Q A was awesome. Got some like actually really interesting questions from the audience. I was expecting just like friends there. And it seemed like the people who were asking questions were like not friends in a very positive way. It was like, like really like, hi, like I'm this person and I'm from here. And like this was really impressive because this and this. And like my question is this totally it. [00:04:14] Speaker C: You know what it reminds me of? We just wrapped like a sort of three part episode series based around the director Luke Matthews, who directed an awesome feature, Tricks Can Go Wrong, which was kind of like a hybrid improv, scripted comedy, man on the street sort of thing. And we interviewed his producers and editor and obviously the director Luke. But Luke talked about how he got advice from a really acclaimed director of like, show your movie to people who love the movie and show it to your enemies too. And that's obviously like an overstatement, but. [00:04:52] Speaker B: I found that's what you did, that you found all your enemies and you said, let's, let's put them in a room. [00:04:57] Speaker C: But some of the most interesting Q and A questions from the Worm filmbros screening were the questions from someone who was only there to see the animated short, you know, and then happened to walk in on Film Bros and be like, whoa, what is this? This? Like maybe I'm an animation person, but I can see the sort of artistic quality in Film Bros in a very specific way, you know, and vice versa. [00:05:21] Speaker A: Obviously there was a lot of people who were either crew on Worm or like just animation friends I have in the community who just supported me through it. And then there were just a bunch of people who. Lightbox, which is the animation expo in Pasadena, happened the weekend before and I was handing out little worm stickers and I went, if you want to see it, there's a screening next week. So there was a couple like total stranger or like, you know, nearly stranger type People who showed up who were just like, I heard about this last week. I just want to see what it is. [00:05:53] Speaker B: What is the Expo? Animation Expo. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Oh, it's called Lightbox. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Is it just like a community meetup or is it like people are showing films, like, what is it? [00:06:03] Speaker A: Full on films, full on three day badges. [00:06:06] Speaker C: It's like a proper festival. Right? [00:06:08] Speaker A: It's like, like companies go there, Disney's there, Warner bro, DreamWorks. Everyone has tables. There's like a whole art gallery you can buy from local artists. It's like a really cool meetup for anyone in animation to just like find a community. And I went the last. That was my third one since moving to la. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Crazy. [00:06:29] Speaker A: A lot of my friends and a lot of people who worked on Worm I met at last year's Expo. Wow, crazy recruiting. [00:06:36] Speaker B: So this one, you had stickers. The Worm stickers. Was there like a date for the screening or just like, here's a sticker for you to remember or like put this together maybe. [00:06:45] Speaker A: I knew it was gonna be the following week, our little joint screening, and I knew, like, I was like, these will be. These will come in handy for context. I had little Worm stickers of the main character in his various outfits. One's like a baseball cap, one's like glasses and a beanie. I call his Silver Lake look. And there's one where he's just wearing. [00:07:07] Speaker C: A pair of boxers, being the douchebag he is. [00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:07:12] Speaker B: That's the Wyatt look. [00:07:14] Speaker C: That's. That's a Wyatt look. Yeah, for sure. That's so cool. I've. I've found, just by being like tangential to the animation community that it's so. It's just so tightly knit, you know, like you, you always are seeing everybody, you know, everybody. Have you worked with in the past? Like, did it feel like. Does it feel like there's a, like the rest of entertainment? Like a kind of hierarchy associated with that? Like, do you see that happening at the Expo or is it more like we're all on the same level, we're all doing our own thing, regardless of where you're working? [00:07:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's definitely more like a we're all in this together. What's really cool about the animation community is like, there's little to no ego in it because you are so much doing it for the art form if you're in animation. [00:08:07] Speaker C: Right, Right. [00:08:08] Speaker A: Drawing alone on your Wacom tablet for hours and hours every day. And what's really nice is it's kind of like another good Thing to note is the sticker thing is like a huge thing at Lightbox. Like, everyone has little stickers of their characters or their pilots or whatever, and it becomes this kind of really friendly community thing of like, you give me a sticker, I'll give you a sticker. And let's pretty common that everyone will post all the merch and things they've collected and tag all the artists they found. [00:08:38] Speaker C: Wow. [00:08:39] Speaker A: So it's like a very wholesome tradition. [00:08:44] Speaker C: So you think that in animation there is a lack of ego because it is so just based on a love of the art form or it's. I would assume it's also because it's so collaborative, you know, like you can't do it by yourself. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Pretty much you could, but you would drive yourself nuts. [00:09:01] Speaker C: Right. [00:09:02] Speaker A: For probably multiple years. [00:09:03] Speaker C: Right, right. [00:09:05] Speaker A: And I think I remember telling someone about this recently, but I was like, if you're in animation, you're only going to make a couple movies your entire career. Like, there's only so many Brad Bird animated movies, you know, and that's it. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:20] Speaker A: So it's even less like, you must really love and pour your heart into every single project, because I'll be another six years here, another six years there. [00:09:28] Speaker B: Does that. Does that excite you or does that kind of like push you away? [00:09:33] Speaker A: Both. Yeah. [00:09:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:36] Speaker A: There's like a reason I dabble in live action as well. Like, there's a reason live action is also really cool and exciting to me is because I'm like, I know how hard and time consuming and expensive animation is, and live action is kind of like that instant gratification of we can just assemble a team and get this done one weekend and call it a day, you know, And I think you kind of need both and both skill sets to like keep yourself sane, but also still, you know, be able to utilize both mediums. [00:10:08] Speaker C: Has working in one medium informed the other in specific ways? Like, have you learned a ton from animation and carried it over to working on a film bro set or whatever it is? [00:10:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a lot of the project management skills of like keeping people oriented on the task and stuff like that really helped into animation because you need that times 10, you know, it's. It's keeping everyone on focus not for 12 hours at a time, but like 12 months at a time, you know, with which is a totally different marathon instead of a sprint. But then in animation, you have to be so deliberate about every design choice, every single shot, every single lighting choice. I think it really helps into live action because you're like, oh, this is a still. This is a painting. Granted, a person is not going to literally paint in the background like they. [00:11:02] Speaker C: Would an animation, right? [00:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But you still have that level of control. And I think with live action, sometimes you're so in a rush to just get the shot that you don't really sit and think, all right, how are we actually going to compose this? How are we actually going to utilize this set and the people and use it to the greatest effect, the lighting, to tell the story? So I think I've gotten a lot more sensitive to it. I was watching Howl's Moving Castle last night, funny enough, and like, every single shot that had just such good, deliberate lighting choices, I would just like, hold on and be like, oh, my God, the lighting. Yeah, his shot, you know, which is most shots in that movie. But you really. It starts to stick out at you when you watch stuff now. [00:11:46] Speaker C: Totally. Was. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Which. [00:11:49] Speaker C: Which did you fall in love with first? Was it animation? Live action? Maybe it was theater. I don't know. What was it like? How did you first get into all of this? Because I know you're not from LA or New York, where a lot of. [00:12:03] Speaker B: Where are you from? What's your story? [00:12:06] Speaker A: I'm from right outside dc, Like, Northern Virginia. I call it the little top of the triangle for people who are unfamiliar. And a lot of people where I grew up went straight to New York to do the theater thing. And I was like, I love film and animation. I'm actually going to move cross country. But, yeah, I always loved animation. I think that was always my first love. I grew up being a huge art kid. Always drawing, always doodling. I did AP Art in high school, you know, while I was still in Drama Club, too. So it was, you know, always the mediums of performing and filming and drawing. And then animation is just that perfect kind of mix of all of it together. You were telling a story and you get the acting and all that fun stuff. [00:12:57] Speaker C: Yeah, DC has, like. I mean, I guess it's not dc, but it's near DC in that sort of area. Like, does have, like, a pretty robust art scene, would you say? [00:13:09] Speaker A: It does. It has, like, good. Very, like, small theater companies. They have, like, the Shakespeare Theater Company there, but it's not so big that you can, like, base your whole career there. I know a lot of people that would bounce between New York and D.C. if they got, like, a regional contract. [00:13:30] Speaker C: Well, there's a. I mean, every touring gig practically goes through dc, right? [00:13:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:13:35] Speaker B: At what point were you like, because you said you knew you were interested in film, tv, animation. Was there a certain show or movie that sparked that intrigue? [00:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it honestly was like watching Studio Ghibli movies again. It's just like, they're just so masterfully done. I probably watched Spirited Away way too young, you know? Yeah, that kind of thing. [00:14:01] Speaker C: Scary. [00:14:02] Speaker A: It's a scary movie that freaks you out. [00:14:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:04] Speaker A: When the parents turned to pigs, I remember I had to turn it off and come back to it again. But it was that. It was like movies like the Iron Giant. It was movies like the Incredibles. I love Brad Bird's stuff. And I just like, you know, my parents sat me down and weren't. Yeah, she'll. She'll enjoy this. [00:14:27] Speaker C: I, like, I, of course, like, I feel like I've watched the incredibles probably like 25 times. Like, it was like. It was one of the CDs and like a Rolodex for road trips, you know. But at the same time, I was never like, oh, this could. Like, people made this. You know, I just, like, had accepted that it was like, out in the. I was like, yeah, it's the Incredibles. It's existed forever. You know, Like, I didn't have. [00:14:49] Speaker A: It's always been made. [00:14:50] Speaker C: Yeah, it's always been. It's like the Bible. It's like the same. You know, it's like nobody really knows who wrote it, but Mr. [00:14:57] Speaker A: Incredible is Jesus. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:01] Speaker C: I mean, literally, like, I never thought that there were people behind it. I feel like with watching, like, you know, Suite Life of Zack and Cody, I could, like, more so tell, like, oh, these are actors. And like, I think maybe because the Disney Channel was so. To me, it was so, like, self aware of, like, where the Sprouse twins and you're. You know, it was like sort of like you get to see the actors behind everything, and it, like, made it very clear. [00:15:26] Speaker A: But. [00:15:26] Speaker C: But with animation and stuff like that, you really. It was kind of hidden in a way, so I didn't ever realize that. Like, how. At what point did you realize that there were, like, people behind this? [00:15:36] Speaker A: I was so obsessed. I'd, like, watch the behind the scenes featurettes on all my DVDs, too. [00:15:41] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah, I missed that. [00:15:44] Speaker A: You should check it out. You should go back and replay that part. But, like, seeing, like, literally, like, those. In those behind the scenes for those animated, you know, movies, they'd have, like, the big wall of every single shot in the entire movie laid out, you know, storyboarded and tracking every shot as it Goes through production and things like that really excited me. And seeing the paintings and the actual animation cells and, and stuff like that. [00:16:12] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:16:13] Speaker B: So how many, how many animated projects have you. I guess the question is, what was the first project for you? Like, what was the experience like? [00:16:22] Speaker A: Yeah, this is my first animated project out of college because it was just. I made a whole bunch of animated shorts in high school. In college I took an animation class. [00:16:35] Speaker B: I guess, I guess I'm, I'm referring more to like in high school, like those really, really early kind of like, like what was that? Like were you just exploring with the medium? Were you just drawing on a pen and paper and like taking photos and that kind of thing? Like how did that work? [00:16:51] Speaker A: This is how deep an art kid I was in high school I did a pre college program at Carnegie Mellon, which is very fun. I got like a scholarship to go there, I believe. And it was like my first foray into like this is what art school is like. You know, you're going to do live nude model drawings and then you're going to go into animation class in the afternoon. And on animation class we were like, you do the classic bouncing ball exercise to just, you know, learn squash and stretch of characters. You know, when they hit something, they smush, when they release, they go long. You know, things like that classic walk cycles and you know, rotoscoping animation. It was just like learning the basics of just how to draw frames and make it look like it's moving. So super basic. And then once got into college, I did a lot more 3D animation working in Maya, which is the software that's very similar to what they use at Pixar. And it's full 3D. It's learning how to light and render entire scenes and move the camera and frame stuff up. And that was also totally, completely solo. I think my final project in that class was like a full on music video. So it was like three and a half minutes and I was working day and night rendering things because it would take overnight to render that many frames. [00:18:22] Speaker C: And are you doing that solo or are you working with classes? [00:18:25] Speaker A: That's fully solo kind of class. And then my thesis in college was I majored in double majored in computer science and drama in college at the University of Virginia. And my computer science thesis, I was like, I don't want to write about coding or something boring. I know I'm going to make my computer science thesis about motion capture and VFX and animation. So in my like paper I got to be like, in Star wars, when they use this VFX shot, you know, and put images there and I kind of hijack the system. [00:19:03] Speaker B: But how, how does, how does computer science relate to that? [00:19:08] Speaker C: Like, yeah, please explain your thesis to us. [00:19:12] Speaker A: Just Google it. It's somewhere online. Is like VFX and animation is so computer science heavy because you're using all these. I hate to bring up the AI word, but I have to do it. Like, that is the kind of culmination itself heading towards of like, computer graphics have always been at like the crux of, like, development. You think about like Pixar movies and you're like the early ones, like, that one short with a baby looks terrifying, but now it looks photo real. And yet it's still all made in a computer. Yeah, just, you know, rendering techniques and. And those kind of models just getting better and better and better. VFX getting easier and easier, you know, tracking, replacing, things like that. Yeah, I believe Integral. [00:20:05] Speaker C: I mean, Pixar. Pixar started and it was like, owned by Apple and it was up in Silicon Valley. So it's always been, I feel like modern animation has always been. There's obviously like Disney animation before that and everything, but modern animation like these 3D renderings and everything have always been very tied in with tech and things like that. [00:20:24] Speaker A: Absolutely. And it's like you can't really separate the art from the tech. [00:20:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:29] Speaker A: Even more so in the animation world, it goes hand in hand. And then like, you know, when Spider Verse came out and they were blending these 2D little drawings and techniques on the characters with these 3D models, you're like, okay, this is new. They're changing up the game. They're changing up. It used to be photo real for everything. And now we're like, people want more stylized stuff. How do we bring that out? So it's still innovating and developing, which is very exciting. [00:20:57] Speaker B: How, how do you land on a style? Is that in pre production or is that in like, even before pre production where it's like. Because I guess like a narrative, it's like you listen to a song and it's like, oh, like maybe it's two actors and they're in a room and they're doing this and talking about that. Like in animation, are you starting with a drawing of a character or is it a song? Or like, what is your process with that? [00:21:23] Speaker A: Some people like to start with like, this is what the character will look like. I'm gonna write a whole script about this character. I like, I started with the script Personally, because that's where I wanted to tell the story. And then I hired incredible concept artists, character designers, background painters who can really like. I made a whole pitch deck with lots of references. I immediately went to the character design first. I had an amazing artist named Julie Hong who works at Sony Animation and stuff and she, I gave her lots of references of robins and bluebirds and she made a really cute character akin to this cute Disney esque picture book style. I wanted it very illustrative. And then I had a, a really amazing other artist named Alex Henderson who did a lot of concept art and like, you know, full on compositions of this is what the scene is going to look like, you know, and that helped us kind of move directionally into the style. But I always knew it was going to be illustrative and reminiscent of like watercolor paintings in children's books. [00:22:32] Speaker C: Totally. [00:22:33] Speaker A: But yeah, that's part of kind of the R and D stage of pre production. You do a lot of iterations, give notes, keep going until you're happy with it before you even think about animating. [00:22:45] Speaker C: What I find is so interesting is that because we've interviewed an animation artists in the past and we've interviewed them about their starts and their first films and everything, or their first shorts. And a lot of them have been, they've been doing it all themselves or they've been working with a partner and doing it, they know the programming, they've been doing everything. And maybe that's because stylistically they have a more independent sort of art feel of it. So it fits what they're trying to do more. But with you, you almost built your own little animation studio with, I mean, there were tens of people working on this project, right? And it's obviously you're the vision and you're having these in depth conversations and pitch decks and everything, but you're also inviting all these people into your vision, you know, So I just think that's super fascinating that you, you chose to, even though I assume you, you know, you could potentially do it by yourself, you chose to invite all these people into your vision. [00:23:46] Speaker A: It's like I could do it by myself or strengthen, you know, the skills I don't have with other people who have been doing this, you know, for a decade in their career. You know, I'm like, I trust, you know that this amazing artist from Sony probably knows a lot more about like the principles of good character design more than I ever will. You know, it's just like same with, we had an amazing animator from Disney who Worked on Once Upon a Studio and she's received training I never will, you know, at that level, fully pen to paper, physically drawing frames. [00:24:27] Speaker C: Once Upon a Studio is like one of the most amazing shorts ever. Luke. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's like it is, it's with all that, it's like Disney funded this. Like it was like a marketing thing, right? Or like something it was announcing. [00:24:39] Speaker A: Maybe it was a celebration of the hundredth year. [00:24:41] Speaker C: Exactly. And they used most of the Disney animation characters from like all of the years and blended all these styles and it was like it was. And there was like a, wasn't there like a problem happening and someone needed to solve it? There was some sort of narrative focus to it as well. But it was like, oh yeah, it was pretty incredible. [00:25:00] Speaker B: Karen, how did you, how did you meet all these people and, and once meeting them, how did you coerce them? [00:25:08] Speaker C: How did you convince them? [00:25:11] Speaker B: Right? Because it's. What do you have, what do you. They, I, they all know. I mean getting anyone to, to attach to a project is, is something but in animation it does seem, it's like everyone is understanding of like, hey, this is, this isn't going to take me a couple minutes. [00:25:31] Speaker C: It's not like a, you know, a four day on set sort of deal, you know. [00:25:36] Speaker A: Yeah, my favorite line from the Q and A was like live action is, are you free next weekend? Animation is like, are you free for the next like year? [00:25:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:25:46] Speaker A: And I met a lot of these people working in animation. I worked my first job in the film Industry was a PA on an animated TV show that was 2D hand drawn, which was very cool. So I learned a lot about the animation pipeline there. I then worked as a coordinator at Disney, so got a lot of Disney contacts there. And then I continued to just keep building that relationship with like local, other small indie animation studios at Lightbox and stuff. A lot of great friends I have are at Newboom, which is an amazing studio. There's Wishbone Animation which is also doing great things. So it's like we all kind of bond together because we're like, we're all doing the same thing, trying to pick something up, you know. So a lot of people were just people I knew or got referred to. And then when it comes to convincing them to dedicate their time, I think the animation industry in, in the US is like not doing great. A lot of stuff is being outsourced to like Canada or South Korea or India more and more and so I think there's just a lot of young, hungry people, either right out of school or a few years out of school that are like, I just want more work. I just want to be a part of a really good title and a really good production studio. And a lot of people I showed the script and the pitch deck to, and they went, oh, this is an amazing idea. Like, this will be something fun and doable. Ella Louise Kahn, who worked at Disney on Once Upon a Studio and, like, worked on the Worm, was just so excited because she was like, I never have done a character like this before. I like the challenge of this, like, faceless little worm with no arms and no legs. How can I make him emote and have all this personality despite all that? And she was just super down for it. So, yeah, it's things like that. [00:27:47] Speaker C: It's pretty incredible and also, like, challenging, you know, because you're making it less and less human by going, you know, without a face, without a mouth, like, all of that. How do you make something emo? [00:27:57] Speaker B: Or. [00:27:57] Speaker C: I guess it does have a mouth. It has a mouth, right? [00:28:01] Speaker A: It sometimes does. [00:28:02] Speaker B: Okay. [00:28:02] Speaker A: And that was a choice she made, too. Like, in the boards, it never had a mouth, but she was like, would make it smile or make it have a little tongue at moments. And it was so smart. [00:28:11] Speaker C: But I guess without eyes. Without eyes is so hard, really. So much of the emotion comes from eyes, especially in animation. Right? [00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I talked to her, and she said it was a very similar character to the magic carpet in Aladdin. [00:28:25] Speaker B: Huh. [00:28:25] Speaker A: Because that thing is dancing and moving and emoting, but it's this carpet, you know, like, how. How do you accomplish that? [00:28:32] Speaker C: That is incredible. And for, like, an artist to have just right away be, oh, magic carpet. From, like. I would never think of that. You know, it's like, it's such a deep knowledge of that. And I guess that's why you surround yourself with people who, like, can do it better than you. [00:28:45] Speaker A: You know, they'll do it better than me. And granted, if I. If I were to do this myself, I would still be working on probably, you know, the rough animation at this point, you know, Totally. We went talking with a finished short. [00:28:59] Speaker B: It sounds like you met the people through jobs, through prior work, and then let kind of the script do the. The majority of the legwork. When it comes to, in quotes, convincing, like, bringing people on board, which is awesome because that means it's. It's there now, like, I guess, directing it to you of, like, before any of this, you were obviously coming out of school. What was the intention with this? Was this like a. Because I can't imagine. This is cheap, right? So, like, this is absolutely an investment, like any short film. Were you seeing this as like a calling card short? Is that something that you were striving to. To make right after school? Like, talk about your intention. And if you. Yeah, kind of. Kind of got there or after the. [00:29:44] Speaker C: Fact, how you're feeling about it, obviously you're still in the process of. [00:29:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:48] Speaker C: Submitting it to festivals, all that. [00:29:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But the product is there. [00:29:52] Speaker C: Like it's done. [00:29:52] Speaker A: Yeah, right. It's funny thinking, like, right out of school because I'm like, oh, I graduated like four years ago. [00:29:58] Speaker C: Right, That's. [00:29:59] Speaker A: But. But it wasn't the first short I made out of school. Out of school. Last year I made a live action short that was like a romance thriller. It was still about art and artists. It was about two painters. And I didn't come up with the script for Worm until after that was complete because I was just ready for the next short and the next project I was going to make. And I actually wrote it, like, intending to be live action. I thought it was going to be like this little girl, not little, but, you know, she would hold like live worm bait and it would be really purposefully disgusting. And when I showed it to people, they're like, this should be animated. You can do so much more with it. The worm can be its own character. You can really utilize the medium. And that's when I, I was already, like, wanting to make something animated for a really long time because that's like the world I came from and what I knew. But I was holding back because I was like. Because I know how long and how hard and how expensive it's going to be. So when I finally had a short script that I was like, okay, this one is going to be worth it. This is a story that can only be told animated. That's when I got very excited and I went, yeah, this will be the calling card for my animation, directorial and producing work. And yeah, it. I kind of justify it because I'm like, I didn't go to grad school. This. This is the equivalent of half of a semester of grad school, you know? [00:31:26] Speaker C: Sure, sure. [00:31:27] Speaker A: And that when you think about, like, that, it's a deal, it's a bargain. So, yeah, yeah. Even though it's still very expensive, the. [00:31:34] Speaker C: Ways we rationalize things, you know, as. As artists. But I. I'm curious. So the next steps for it, right? You. You had a Screening, obviously. And you had have some new audience from that eventized it, which I would love to get into that a little later. Just the art of putting on events and Luke does that all the time. And I think it's a really effective promotional device for a lot of reasons. [00:31:58] Speaker B: But. [00:32:00] Speaker C: What'S next for the short? What does it look like with applying to festivals? Are you being targeted? Are you applying to everything under the sun? What does that look like? [00:32:11] Speaker A: I'm deep in festival submissions. I think there's about 20 to 30 I've already submitted to. Applying to a lot of, of course, the big boys, the Tribecas, you know, the slam dances. But then as well, targeting more animation specific ones, comedy specific ones. Targeting all over the world because we did have artists and animators from France and from the uk. We had someone from the Philippines and someone from Australia. So it's like, cool. Now I can kind of use this in my cover letter to be like, hey, we've got ties to this place. Might do good seeing what it does. Trying to get onto a really good distribution site. Kind of like Miu or Benoit's animation showcase. Those kind of things are great landing platforms for animated shorts like this that are trying to push the medium in some new way. [00:33:06] Speaker C: Right. [00:33:06] Speaker A: And then kind of seeing where it goes beyond there, you know, seeing if like a. Maybe a miniseries or there's some worm sequel potential. Maybe she dates other bugs. [00:33:18] Speaker C: Yeah, she definitely. I could see that happening. [00:33:23] Speaker A: You know, pray mantis or a cockroach. Next. Yeah. [00:33:26] Speaker C: What are the different personalities for all the bugs? [00:33:28] Speaker A: You know, I feel like the cockroach likes to smoke cigarettes. [00:33:31] Speaker B: Totally. For sure. [00:33:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:33] Speaker C: He has been around the block. [00:33:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's been. He just has a duvet in his room. Yeah. [00:33:40] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:33:42] Speaker A: But yeah, that's. It's. It's like this weird, you know, the age old question of what do I do? I did the. I already did the impossible thing of making it. [00:33:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:52] Speaker A: And finishing it. [00:33:54] Speaker C: It's not over, you know, the. The story keeps writing itself. [00:33:57] Speaker A: Right. It's crazy. [00:33:58] Speaker C: Which is like a beautiful thing, but also like, oh, boy. Like I. I'm burnt out, you know, like what? You know, all that. [00:34:05] Speaker A: I need a break. But it doesn't stop. [00:34:07] Speaker B: It sounds like you know what you want, though. And that was going to be my question of like, well, what is your goal in this distribution phase? But it sounds, again, it sounds like you know exactly what you want. You want it to be seen at festivals and for it to land and find a home to Be seen. [00:34:23] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:34:24] Speaker B: You know, I think it's good to know that. [00:34:26] Speaker C: Totally. Like, yes, that's a really. That's more than a lot of people. I'm curious if we can pivot just to continue down the sort of business side of things. When you start in animation or when you graduate school and you move to la where there's a lot of animation jobs, obviously what are those entry level positions that people can get and then what is the sort of pipeline from there? And are a lot of people like you? If you work an entry level position, are you oftentimes doing stuff on the side or, you know, like trying to do your own thing or like what is, what does the typical thing look like when you move out here and you're trying to get into animation? [00:35:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it's slightly different depending if you're trying to do like production management, like that kind of stuff, or if you're purely like on the basis of my portfolio, want to be a background painter, you know, I want to be the person doing the hand drawn keys. [00:35:26] Speaker C: Right. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Then you really, really need to hone your portfolio, get it portfolio reviewed, which is also some stuff offered at Lightbox by companies and really making sure you can like basically nail that like apprentice apprenticeship type job. When you're trying to do like animation production, your goal is like kind of an internship maybe then you're a PA coordinator, do that a long time, become a production manager type role. But again, the turnover rate is very, very slow. I know people who worked as production coordinators on Disney features and they've been for years. [00:36:14] Speaker C: Because the features take so long, right? [00:36:16] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. That's why if you want to climb fast in the animation industry, you should hop, you know, title to title. Because long after I left my very first PA on an animated show, they were still working on that show for another like two to three years. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Whoa. [00:36:38] Speaker A: And I already thought I was like seeing the tail end of it, but no, it continued on. So it's, it is very slow. I think the climb is definitely not as fast as live action. So you've got to really, really want it. And I know a lot of people, including like some old mentors who had enough of the animation industry in LA and moved back to their hometowns. [00:37:01] Speaker C: Wow. [00:37:02] Speaker A: They were just like, I can't do this for the money and the time anymore. [00:37:06] Speaker C: Yeah. So what was your specific path? Because I know you've worked at a bunch of, you know, the different studios and things like that. So what did you do? And then, you know, the follow up to that is like, do you wish you did anything different? [00:37:21] Speaker A: I, I think I got very lucky. I got that very first animation PA job on a, on a TV show because I was the television academy intern in animation. They do a, like, internship placement program. [00:37:36] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I know a bunch of people who have done that. That's awesome. [00:37:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:37:41] Speaker C: They place you with specific artists and things like that too, right? [00:37:44] Speaker A: Exactly. And I felt like I won the lottery that year because I was the animation intern of 2021 and I was like, wow, in a nationwide application, I somehow did it. And it was my second time applying too. I was just so gung ho on. I need to get this, that in my application video. I went all out and, you know, shot a crazy film that I was like, they can't say no to this. Put all my art everywhere and filmed around the whole school and stuff like that. But there's nothing I would have done different because that, that job was really amazing too. It was like still mid pandemic, still finish my school, still learn animation at the same time and getting like a first credit on a TV show and, and I think all those, what I call like your main job, really just tell you about the industry and how to do things on a big macro scale and then simultaneously. When I first moved to la, I started my own production company, zipped up films, I started making my own shorts, I started producing other people's shorts. And then I really took all those skills and learned how to do it on a micro scale and achieve this, you know, possible scale. So I think you definitely need both. I joked with someone a while back that, like, for a really long time, and I still kind of do it at the end of a workday, I close my work laptop and then I just immediately open my personal one. [00:39:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:12] Speaker A: And you just kind of have to do it because it's. You have to have a lot of irons in the fire ready to go and ready to, you know, so you aren't just that it's still amazing work. But if you are like, I aspire to do more and be that creator and storyteller beyond just the quote, coordinator on a feature. You gotta have your own work that you're working on on the side. And almost everyone I know who are those kind of roles do have their own passion projects they're working on at the same time. [00:39:45] Speaker C: Yeah. And that carries over to live action obviously too. I mean, I feel like with you specifically, like you were working an animation job and writing live action. Right. That was happening simultaneously. So it's really transferable, I would say, those skills. And there is something, because I try to do that. At the same time, I'm working at a low level on huge movies. [00:40:14] Speaker B: At. [00:40:14] Speaker C: The company I work, but I'm also trying to do film bros and, you know, working on 50, 50 stuff with Luke and all this stuff that's kind of on, you know, a more tangible level. So it's. It is really helpful because ideally, those meet in the middle someday. Right? Isn't. Isn't that the goal? [00:40:31] Speaker A: The goal is one day you'll be noticed for all the already amazing work you've done for years. And you can kind of. One is to pay the bills and one is to pay your soul, you. [00:40:41] Speaker C: Know, it's so hard. Yeah. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Karen, who are you inspired by? Because it's. It's very clear that you're a self starter and very. Like you make the door, you draw it literally and like draw the doorknob and draw the key and then like put it in and open the door and walk through it. Like, where do you. Where does that come from? Are you just. You just have had it all, all these years? Yeah. [00:41:16] Speaker A: I think I always had that kind of like instilled in me from a young age. I was always like a A plus type student, go getter, perfectionist kind of person. But then I also knew very early on in doing theater I would, you know, often be the director or the choreographer for lots of school musicals. And I, for some reason it clicked that, like, if I can lead a hundred people on stage to teach them choreography at the same time and manage a group and lead in that way, I was like, I've got this. I can kind of assemble whoever I need and help make whatever it takes. And I think I never. Maybe it's. It's slightly delusional, but I was never scared of it. I never was. Like, I always kind of knew if I had the right people and I, you know, put the gears in motion, it will happen no matter what. [00:42:13] Speaker C: Yeah. I will say, like, you played so many roles on the film bro set and you know, obviously it was a lot of filming in our, you know, eight, nine day shoot. And oftentimes you would be playing the role that you didn't expect to be playing. Quite literally. You were actually in the web series for a little bit, but also you were, you know, doing the clapper thing. You can tell that I don't play many roles. But you were doing the clapper thing, right? [00:42:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:43] Speaker C: But you were, you were adding, right? You were Adding you were like, project managing. You were making sure that everybody was fed during lunch. Like, you were doing so many things on set, and when someone wasn't there, you would just fill that role. And I think that comes from, like, experience, right, because you've involved yourself in so many things. But it is that sort of innate, like, okay, when Karen's on set, we are all, like, behaving, and we are. We are all, like, in a good way, you know? Like, we are. When she raises her voice, it means, okay, we're behind on schedule and we need to be, like, really, really serious right now. Or we need to be very economical with our time, even more so than before, you know? [00:43:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it. I think it's because people know I'm nice, and if I'm like, all right, guys, right, we gotta keep moving. People are like, okay, we really need. [00:43:32] Speaker C: That's a really important thing though, right? Like, the way. The way you carry yourself in specific environments. Like, we. We know who you are when you walk into a room. And then if you are more stern with us or are more stern to whomever is slacking or whatever it is, they're like, okay, I know that Karen is serious right now, and I need to be, like, on my best. You know, you kind of make it. [00:43:57] Speaker A: Sound like I had you all. [00:43:59] Speaker C: Yeah, you had us all terrified. Yeah, we didn't have any fun. No, you obviously were also having fun. But I think in those really intense moments, the way you carry yourself is a very important thing. You know, it's what a producer does. You know, that's exactly what a producer does. Has like a bird's eye view or a worm's eye view, you could say, of. Of the whole set. And I think you. You saw the set in a very specific angle. Do you like being on set as a producer? Like, obviously you played so many types of producer hats, right? Like, you were there from the start. You were. You know, we had the scripts written, but we didn't have anything else done. So you helped with budget, all that, but you were also on set. Couldn't done it without you on set, you know. So do you like doing that? [00:44:48] Speaker A: I love it. I also now have worked on, like, a real wide range of, like, budgets of set. And like, you know, I just know film bros. It's Run and Gun. I will have to step in and fill those roles. That's just the way those Run and gun micro, micro budget shoots work. When things are a little bit bigger and there's just more cooks in the kitchen. It's a little bit harder to keep everyone as oriented, but it's still, you know, a good challenge and a good, you know, management, you know, task. [00:45:31] Speaker C: Right. [00:45:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:32] Speaker C: Sometimes it's even. It's harder not to step in, you know. [00:45:35] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like I actually now have people delegated to do this. I actually need to just let it go back and let them do it. I think. I think something else that really helped as well for me to do my job really successfully was I had a really good creative relationship with Elijah, the director, in that he really trusted me. If I was stepping in and suggesting something he knew to help take it. You know, at the end of a long day, I can sit down with him and be like, all right, so this is the shots we need to get tomorrow. Now. Now we need to do it in this order, you know, if we're going to do this way and really working well that way. Almost every single, like, one where, like, I am the sole producer, I have that kind of relationship with the director or the creative lead of the project. So that's like. It makes it more a collaborative experience and less like I am just there to touch budgets and forms and they don't really care about what I have to say. Or that's, you know, that's. [00:46:32] Speaker B: That. That. [00:46:33] Speaker C: That's the kind of repeatable administrative stuff that's almost less important than you doing the psychological thing, which is making sure that you are on the same page as the director and you are presenting yourself specific ways to the crew so that they know that this is who you are and you are on top of things and we should all be attentive. Even the actors know your presence in the room is felt in a positive way. And I think that's like what a good producer does, you know? [00:47:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Karen, what do you. What do you do for fun? Like, is it. Do you. Are you drawing in your free time? [00:47:13] Speaker A: Do you ever stop working? [00:47:15] Speaker B: No. No. I mean, look, you're talking to. You're talking to two people that. That don't stop, you know? [00:47:22] Speaker A: Yeah. I really love dance. It's always been like a soft spot in my heart since I was little. I'll go to, like, dance classes in LA at like, Roots or Millennium. So that's a great way to, like, let off steam for me any sort. [00:47:39] Speaker B: Of, like, style of dance or just straight up anything. [00:47:43] Speaker A: I. In high school, I was like, full dance mom's kid, like in competitions, like doing ballet and jazz and contemporary and then coming to la. What's very funny is I never did hip hop, but the hip hop scene is so integral to the LA dance scene. So I totally intro hip hop classes and I was like, this is cool. This is a different way to like hold and carry myself and my body. And it's challenging in just the right ways. I can kind of have this fun attitude that I'm not necessarily allowed to have in my day to day life. So I love doing that. [00:48:23] Speaker C: That's awesome. [00:48:24] Speaker A: And I got very into improv as well. Just being in la. Just I was like, this is fun. I can be funny and annoying and let out, you know, every intrusive thought and really play and create with. With Total strangers. [00:48:38] Speaker B: Is that like a Groundlings thing or UCB or where do you go? Okay. [00:48:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I also am finding that as like a good. I just need to. I guess I still have the theater kid deep in me. I just still need to. [00:48:51] Speaker C: I know you do and I will hold you to that. It's all. It's important for all of us to have that in us. That's really great to hear. I think we can all like, you know, especially with when you're. We've talked so much about, in this episode about having that, you know, macro job, but also doing the micro projects and doing those projects where you're really in it and you know, as you mentioned, closing that work laptop and opening up the personal one and keep going. But there's a point where you do need to like on a weekend just like unwind and find your ways. That's really important. [00:49:27] Speaker B: Do you like, there are certain filmmakers that the camera moves in a very dance like, dynamic way. Do you find yourself leaning towards filmmakers who do that, like telling stories with a camera kind of through dance? Or is it more of like you just want to put a camera on a tripod and let your actors dance? You know, like what. What are you? Kind of a crazy question, but I'm. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Very inspired by like directors like Maya Darren from like, you know, the Black and White era. She just does such a beautiful use of more like movement in the compositions. You know, really doing surreal kind of crazy emotive stuff that just. You feel it more viscerally. That's the kind of stuff that really inspires me. And when if I'm making a camera move around a bunch, it is definitely like probably for only a shot if it's needed. I tend to be a lot more deliberate in it and sure. Less Running Gun. [00:50:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:41] Speaker A: Planet planning stuff out. Yeah. [00:50:45] Speaker B: I saw Celine's Song. I saw the material because I Saw it Past Lives for the first time. I somehow missed that movie. I don't know how. Actually, it's my second time seeing it. But she is just so intentional with camera moves. And I guess in her case, I mean, I guess like any case with a camera, it's like there's a dance between the camera and the actor. You know, like subject in frame or whatever is in frame. But she is such. You talk about backgrounds and stuff. Are you. It sounds like you're a fan of Celine as well. [00:51:13] Speaker A: Oh, yes. Past Lives was like the only movie I've ever seen that had me sobbing the whole car ride home. [00:51:20] Speaker C: Wow. [00:51:20] Speaker A: Like, I could not stop crying. [00:51:22] Speaker B: You could watch Fruitville Station. You should see. And then let me know if. [00:51:26] Speaker A: Yeah, let me know if that messes you up too. [00:51:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:30] Speaker C: Past Lives is, I mean, just like the. Conceptually, it's so, like, evocative, you know, it's just so that concept could make you sob home in the car. It's such like a. It's such. It's gold. It's. It's pretty amazing. So I'm curious, you know, what. What is the dream? Like? What. [00:51:49] Speaker B: Take it, take it away from the filmmaking conversation. [00:51:57] Speaker A: Why? It's like any. [00:51:58] Speaker C: We could actually just end the podcast, right? [00:52:02] Speaker A: Is this a threat? You're like, I will end the recording. [00:52:07] Speaker B: But. [00:52:07] Speaker C: But I am. I'm curious because it all has to do with it, right? Like you. [00:52:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:52:11] Speaker C: It's about those two points meeting, as we've talked about. You know, if we're going to keep extending that metaphor of you're in this, you're doing this, like, on the ground work, and you're also working on these huge things and being involved in higher budget stuff. And what is, what does it look like when those two points meet? Ideally, what is, what is that dream for you? [00:52:30] Speaker A: That dream at this moment in time is just getting the funding to make that dream feature project. You know, having it. It's a really hard world to fund, you know, oh, I casually want to make a $50 million movie. You know, what does that realistically look like? [00:52:49] Speaker C: So casual, so casual. [00:52:52] Speaker A: So casual. But I really do think that maybe, maybe similar to my shorts kind of career, I'll start with a live action feature and use that to be like, see, now give me the real money to make the animated feature. You know, I can direct in both. But it's. Wow, that's kind of the dream to work on a film like that for a few years. [00:53:16] Speaker C: Have. Have directors done that, directed both. [00:53:21] Speaker A: I feel like there Must be. [00:53:22] Speaker C: I guess. I guess Lord Miller does spider verse and other live action stuff. [00:53:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. [00:53:28] Speaker C: That's the one. [00:53:29] Speaker B: That's. [00:53:30] Speaker C: That's pretty incredible. And it's. It's just a testament to, like, you. You have been so equally involved in both fields. It's so fascinating to me. [00:53:41] Speaker A: Yeah. What's interesting is, I think like, a common piece of advice for like indie filmmakers is just make your feature. Make it for 10k. Make it the most run and gun thing ever, but just make it. [00:53:54] Speaker B: It's like, I need 50 million. [00:53:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm like, there's no middle ground in animation. [00:53:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:00] Speaker C: You can't just do that. [00:54:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:01] Speaker A: Yeah. It will, like flow is a team of like five people. It still costs like five to ten million bucks. You know, it's crazy. [00:54:10] Speaker C: Just what is costing that much money just for the dumb people out there like me. [00:54:15] Speaker A: It's just everyone's salaries because they need to still pay everyone. It's their full time job. [00:54:21] Speaker C: They're Right, right, right. Totally. And you gotta. Yeah. Pay the animals. Right or no. Did they not pay the animals? Are we breaking a story right now? [00:54:31] Speaker A: We're talking to SAG after this. [00:54:33] Speaker C: Okay. [00:54:34] Speaker B: They're all over it already. [00:54:35] Speaker C: I think they're actually. Oh. I was gonna make like a. Maybe their WAG or something like for the animals. Oh, not bad. [00:54:42] Speaker B: No, they have the. [00:54:44] Speaker C: It's the WAG union. [00:54:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:47] Speaker A: It should be called wag. [00:54:48] Speaker C: If it's not, I'm falling apart. [00:54:50] Speaker B: Do you have. Do you have any. Do you have any animals, Karen? Any pets? [00:54:54] Speaker A: I do not. [00:54:55] Speaker B: Wyatt has. White has two. [00:54:57] Speaker C: I have two cats. To be honest, here's. [00:54:59] Speaker B: They've been going nuts. I've been hearing yelling and to be. [00:55:03] Speaker C: Honest, honesty mode right now. When you were talking about the dancing stuff, my cats were ripping each other. [00:55:10] Speaker B: Apart. [00:55:12] Speaker C: Like right at my feet. [00:55:13] Speaker A: Distracted I was. [00:55:15] Speaker C: I had to mute myself for a second. And so I. I did miss a little bit of and my apologies song conversation. [00:55:21] Speaker B: That was definitely. That makes sense. That makes more sense now. [00:55:23] Speaker C: It was definitely abrupt the way I was like, I can't. I don't know what's going on. [00:55:29] Speaker A: Yeah, they sidetracked too far. [00:55:31] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. I. I did want to say, I would be remiss to, you know, if I didn't mention the fact that you produced a very successful YouTube show in Brittany Broski's show. And obviously that's. She's like the face of the platform at this point. And I. I. Would you mind just taking us through, you know, however Much. You want to share how you got involved with Brittany and her show, because obviously it was. It was at the beginning and then just like a little crash course on, like, how the show got so popular and obviously, like, no one person can take full credit for that. But, you know, in your eyes, as. As a producer on the show, how. How that show got to be so big so quickly. [00:56:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I. It's crazy being on that show from day one because I got that gig from just, like, a friend I knew who was like, hey, I can't produce this show that's filming in two weeks because I have jury duty. Do you want to fill in? I know you want to do producing work. This is just a quote, random online Internet talk show. You know, it should be easy and not too hard. I was like, sounds great. Pass the word. This was like early 2023. I had a great conversation with Brittany. She liked me, onboarded me, and after that episode was like, we still, like, working with you. Want to stay on? I was like, absolutely. So I shot that very first episode, the Orville Peck episode, in like, May 2023. And way back in the beginning, it was the most Run and gun. Not fully run and gun, but it was like we would rent a podcast studio, we would build the whole set up, you know, four hours before the. [00:57:18] Speaker C: Guests, and then take it down. [00:57:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:57:20] Speaker C: Like, you couldn't have it in the space. [00:57:21] Speaker A: Yeah, every single time. And we did that for about a year because we just didn't have, like, the show wasn't big enough yet to, like, fully have our own permanent space. And I kind of witnessed, like, since the Cole Sprouse episode, that was kind of the turning point of, like, now we're getting, like, you know, real famous celebrities on the show. It started more like YouTube oriented and Britney's Friends, and it just kind of really blew up from there. And shortly after, we had Daisy Edgar Jones, we had Saoirse Ronan, like a. [00:57:57] Speaker C: List celebrities on press junkets. It became like a Hot Ones type show. Did you know that the Cole Sprouse episode was gonna blow up the way that it did, or did you have, like a hunch just cause of that? I mean, in my mind, it's like the nostalgia factor is so huge for people our age, you know, like, nostalgia's one of the most. What's the word? Effective things to bring viewers on. Did you have any idea what's really. [00:58:23] Speaker A: Funny is, like, before that episode taping, we were just terrified that, like, because we didn't know, like, what his personality would be like, we were scared that when we give him a Danimals, he'll be like, oh, are you kidding me? You know? But he, you know, played into all the kind of theatricality and craziness of the show perfectly. They had amazing chemistry, of course, and it's just really funny, like, looking back and thinking, like, what we were stressed about for each guest and kind of. Stanley Earhart is an amazing director and editor. He does all those episodes, and he is just bringing magic into the edit as well. Yeah. [00:59:02] Speaker C: Cool. Yeah, I guess. It's so many components to it. Right. So after the first year, when you. What does that look like after the first year? Are you able to keep the set up? Or, like, do you have a space now? Or, like, what does that look like? [00:59:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. We were tired of building the whole set from scratch and taking it down every time. I literally had a photo on my phone of, like, the whole layout of the table of where to put all the props, and I would do that every single time. And then finally, at some point, Brittany's like, we are ready. We're gonna make this show in a permanent spot. We did a couple tours of certain studio spaces around la. We found this lovely little, little studio that we call our home. Now we've gotten actual production designers to make an actual brick wall behind us instead of in those old episodes. It's literally just an Amazon backdrop that I got. And I remember setting up and buying and. Yeah, we just now are renovating it again for season three, like, over Thanksgiving. It's going to get another third season, full refresh. Like, the people are literally constructing in there as we speak. [01:00:14] Speaker C: So amazing. I love Set Update. [01:00:18] Speaker B: Has it gotten more stressful or less stressful with the success? [01:00:27] Speaker A: It's like, yes and no. I think at the beginning, we were just like, so. It was so raw and new and exciting and, like, oh, my God. Every guest we got felt like, this is crazy, you know? And now it just feels, like, inevitable. It's. We've gotten such crazy names there that it's like, we've seen, like, guests really, like, gel well with the show's format, we've seen guests not as well. We are just trying to make sure that we, as the show still present the guest in the best light and still bring out the best energy out of them. And I think just with experience. Experience of, like, nearly three years, it's just trying to make sure that the guest is as set up for success as they can be. [01:01:09] Speaker C: One of the most fun parts about the show to me is the look of it and how like it's very DIY and I think intentionally so. [01:01:17] Speaker B: Right. [01:01:18] Speaker C: Because it almost reminds me of like the Eric Andre show, you know, where you can kind of like see the set. Like sometimes you're like seeing the crew. Like everything is a little feeling unfinished in a way. Everything feels like kind of breakable and like, it's just like we just like ragtag crew, like put this together and here it is, you know, but like, I feel like that's very intentional the way that that is. [01:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah. With like the third roaming cam. [01:01:43] Speaker C: Totally, like totally. [01:01:45] Speaker A: Just kind of the plastic, you know, food that's on the table. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:48] Speaker C: And that's what viewers love. Like, they love the authenticity, you know, like they love, they love seeing and all the, the surprises obviously in the show. Like, they love people feeling like it's happening real time in the moment, like non rehearsed, like all that. [01:02:02] Speaker A: It is pure like improv in the moment. We sometimes have a little like crowd that's sitting there and almost every time you hear someone like break out to laughter, it is probably me on the side. So many people message me going, I can hear your laugh. And I'm like, I know it's loud. [01:02:24] Speaker C: What's the most challenging part of producing that show? [01:02:30] Speaker A: Now? We are kind of upping the rate of episodes and filming again. Before, anytime we had to set up a whole set, it must have been really worth it. We would maybe only shoot two guests in one day every month or every few months or so. And now we are just amping up, you know, the amount of incoming interest to be on the show, amping up the, you know, amount of times we're filming a month and amount of times we're posting a month, which is all very exciting. It's just trying to get like, all right, now we really need a designated pipeline and flow because now we're, you know, up there with like last meals or hot ones or chicken chop date and getting to that level of, you know, that level of like, we are a stop on people's press junkets. [01:03:25] Speaker C: Totally. [01:03:26] Speaker B: It's amazing. [01:03:27] Speaker C: Yeah, it's exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, people are like falling in love with Britney over anything. You know, she's. She's the, she's the constant in the show. The celebrities are, you know, it's an ever flowing thing, but like, she's the one that people, people are like, oh, what's Britney gonna do this time? You know, that's, that's why people are. [01:03:46] Speaker A: They come to see how they're gonna vibe together. And almost always, like, the first comment is like, it's a theater kid in a jock after art class, you know? [01:03:54] Speaker C: Like, totally. [01:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:57] Speaker C: It's a great way to describe it. [01:03:59] Speaker B: I love it. [01:04:00] Speaker A: I think that was, like, the David Corn Sweat episode. It was very fun. [01:04:03] Speaker C: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Who's the theater kid? Who's the jock, though? That's the big question. David. [01:04:10] Speaker A: You're right. You're right. [01:04:13] Speaker C: Well, Karen, we really appreciate you coming on the show. It's been, as I mentioned, long overdue. And obviously, we've discussed so so much the. The various positions you fill, and just, I think generally, like, we learned so much about project management from you, and I have already hearing you talk and being on set with you, but it's been really awesome to kind of consolidate that into an interview. So we really appreciate it. [01:04:39] Speaker A: No, thank you. It's an honor to be on and just yap a bit about how. How the sausage gets made. [01:04:47] Speaker B: Thank you, Karen. [01:04:48] Speaker C: Awesome. Appreciate it. [01:04:57] Speaker B: Did you learn something? I'm like your mom. Did you learn something in this episode? I hope so. Or not. That's okay. Thanks for hanging. Make sure you follow us at 5050 Fest on Instagram and give us five stars, because. Why not? Why not subscribe? Why not? You know why not? Okay, bye.